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+--- Thread: FDNY New pumpers......... (/showthread.php?tid=1707)
FDNY New pumpers......... - Guest - 12-01-2012
[quote name='ACPD227' timestamp='1351266288' post='501617']
I know Ottawa has placed an order but do they have KME rigs inservice. Philly is the only city that mat be close to wear and tear to FDNY.
[/quote]
Philadelphia has had many trials and tribulations with KME apparatus (and ALF as well just to be fair). This would include shoddy craftsmanship on the mid-90's orders - the story I remember in particular was the tailboards literally falling off of a couple of them early on; to the complete rejection of a ladder tower at one point. The first four of the new ones have been better received, hence the order for 19 more of them; however, Philly buys low bid right now - period end of story. They had tons of problems with ALF units, and yet have ordered four tillers from them that are in build process now as far as I know. Why would they buy them again, you say? Yep - LOW BID.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Guest - 12-01-2012
[quote name='Dave Ehrman' timestamp='1354378897' post='504495']
Philadelphia has had many trials and tribulations with KME apparatus (and ALF as well just to be fair). This would include shoddy craftsmanship on the mid-90's orders - the story I remember in particular was the tailboards literally falling off of a couple of them early on; to the complete rejection of a ladder tower at one point. The first four of the new ones have been better received, hence the order for 19 more of them; however, Philly buys low bid right now - period end of story. They had tons of problems with ALF units, and yet have ordered four tillers from them that are in build process now as far as I know. Why would they buy them again, you say? Yep - LOW BID.
[/quote]
Although it should be noted that FDNY does its own thing for the most part. Someone in NYC seems to think that KME is meeting the spec - and in fact, they might be. However, what we won't see directly is how hard of a hit KME takes on the warranty work they will be responsible for over the first 5 years of the service life of the apparatus. They have the most comprehensive, cut-your-nuts-off warranty in the apparatus industry. There are manufacturers (Pierce) that don't bother with them - the warranty being one of the main reasons. KME (and Ferrara for that matter) is going to find out what their products are really made of. These kinds of deals can make or break even the largest apparatus builder.
FDNY New pumpers......... - KENTucky - 12-01-2012
KME is a strong manufacturer. Love them or hate them. I have no problem with low bid...to them, especially with Seagrave continually stepping on their own ####. Certainly, this will be a testament or disclaimer to their ruggedness. However, I can't for the life of me understand WHY ANYONE WOULD DEAL WITH ALF right now. They have done nothing burn customer after customer for the better part of the 2000s. Forget low bid, most specs (or at least should) require the bidder to be "in good financial standing." How could ALF ever prove they meet that requirement? Would they just take exception? "No, we are NOT in good financial condition." LOL.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Roto-Ray - 12-01-2012
[quote name='KENTucky' timestamp='1354391982' post='504502']
Forget low bid, most specs (or at least should) require the bidder to be "in good financial standing." [/quote]
I couldn't agree more ... we started requiring the bidder to submit a Dun & Bradstreet financial report with their proposal for this very reason.
FDNY New pumpers......... - goon16 - 12-02-2012
Ferrera is finding out first hand right now how hard the warranty is going to kill them. They are doing a lot of warranty work on the rear mounts
FDNY New pumpers......... - RagsCo4 - 12-11-2012
Anyone hear anything more on this? I am surprised that nothing has been posted officially on KME's website yet.
FDNY New pumpers......... - iaff5045 - 12-22-2012
If they go to KME, they are going to need the warranty. KME are not great, we have two new pieces and having problems. Our third truck, so far has been rejected due to issues and appears KME will be selling it to someone else, because they can't meet the our spec that they signed and said they could build the truck.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Truckman - 12-22-2012
[quote name='RagsCo4' timestamp='1355241993' post='505236']
Anyone hear anything more on this? I am surprised that nothing has been posted officially on KME's website yet.
[/quote]
I really doubt that KME is going to post anything about the problems with the FDNY rigs on their site. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
FDNY New pumpers......... - RagsCo4 - 12-23-2012
[quote name='Truckman' timestamp='1356197182' post='505883']
I really doubt that KME is going to post anything about the problems with the FDNY rigs on their site.
/>[/quote]
They haven't posted anything about winning the contract yet, that's what I am talking about not issues with the trucks. And they would have to get them a truck to use first before they have any issues.
FDNY New pumpers......... - willman940 - 01-01-2013
There's a great article in the 3rd issue 2012 of WNYF about adapting seatbelts and SCBA seats to be user friendly enough to try and push for 100% use. Does anyone know if theses changes will be made to these new engines?
FDNY New pumpers......... - fyreline - 01-01-2013
Tom Wilbur has been working with the FDNY to come up with a workable, retrofitted seat belt system that the guys will actually use. One of their ladder companies was recently involved in a particularly violent front end impact, and fortunately the rig was fitted with the new seat belt system and all the brothers survived. I think it's safe to say that everyone at the FDNY is finally getting on the same page with this issue, and about damned time. So should we all. Firefighters that arrive on the scene alive save many lives. Injured firefighters save few. Dead firefighters save none.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Guest - 01-01-2013
No matter what manufacturer you have build your rig, its bound to have problems. Fire trucks are not assembly line copies, they are one off projects regardless if fifty vehicles are built off the same set of specs. As in the past FDNY and the people invovled in the building process will be on top of everything to make sure the rigs are built to what they want.
If you don't stay on top of what you are specing out for a truck throught the building process, you will have a truck with a bunch of problems.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Marc - 01-01-2013
[quote name='fyreline' timestamp='1357050667' post='506661']
Tom Wilbur has been working with the FDNY to come up with a workable, retrofitted seat belt system that the guys will actually use. One of their ladder companies was recently involved in a particularly violent front end impact, and fortunately the rig was fitted with the new seat belt system and all the brothers survived. I think it's safe to say that everyone at the FDNY is finally getting on the same page with this issue, and about damned time. So should we all. Firefighters that arrive on the scene alive save many lives. Injured firefighters save few. Dead firefighters save none.
[/quote]
Mike Wilbur has been a LT in my house for over 17 years...............He did a good thing with these new seat belts, as my house was the test-pilot house for the program. I gotta be completely honest though, and I did voice this in person to Mike..............I ALWAYS wear my seat belt when driving the rig............When i'm in the back, I don't wear it, and I probably never will.........99.9% of the men feel the same way..........We can be at our 1st due boxes in a matter of 2 minutes...........i'm getting my mask on and making sure i'm ready to go! You can't do that when you're wearing a seatbelt, no matter what ANYBODY say's................
FDNY New pumpers......... - fyreline - 01-01-2013
Sorry, of course I meant MIKE Wilbur . . . His partner, Tom Shand, popped into what passes for my mind as I was typing. And, yes, I know that the years of FD culture make 100% seat belt compliance extremely problematic . . . And not just in the FDNY, it's a nationwide issue. The reality is, if you're not wearing your seatbelt, you're willing to take the risk. Unfortunately, the city you work for isn't, and if you are injured in an apparatus accident while choosing - on your own and in violation of departmental policy - not to wear your seat belt, don't expect the city to cough up a dime for you or your family. Is it worth it?
To go back to what caused us to drift somewhat off-topic (sorry for the hijack), I would safely assume that from this point forward all new FDNY apparatus will be equipped with seat belts and members will be expected to wear them. Fire departments nationwide are struggling with this issue, but a few crashes where the city contests payment for injuries or deaths by members who chose not to use the safety equipment provided for them and mandated to be used, and hopefully the culture will change. I do understand the issue, after 40 years with my department (10 of them as an engine driver in the busy Syracuse University area) and now as a Deputy Chief, I fully comprehend the arguments against seat belt use at every riding position . . . And I used to believe some of them, too.
I don't anymore. The slogan "Everyone Goes Home" becomes just a slogan if we don't do everything we can to protect ourselves.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Marc - 01-01-2013
[quote name='fyreline' timestamp='1357087173' post='506683']
Sorry, of course I meant MIKE Wilbur . . . His partner, Tom Shand, popped into what passes for my mind as I was typing. And, yes, I know that the years of FD culture make 100% seat belt compliance extremely problematic . . . And not just in the FDNY, it's a nationwide issue. The reality is, if you're not wearing your seatbelt, you're willing to take the risk. Unfortunately, the city you work for isn't, and if you are injured in an apparatus accident while choosing - on your own and in violation of departmental policy - not to wear your seat belt, don't expect the city to cough up a dime for you or your family. Is it worth it?
To go back to what caused us to drift somewhat off-topic (sorry for the hijack), I would safely assume that from this point forward all new FDNY apparatus will be equipped with seat belts and members will be expected to wear them. Fire departments nationwide are struggling with this issue, but a few crashes where the city contests payment for injuries or deaths by members who chose not to use the safety equipment provided for them and mandated to be used, and hopefully the culture will change. I do understand the issue, after 40 years with my department (10 of them as an engine driver in the busy Syracuse University area) and now as a Deputy Chief, I fully comprehend the arguments against seat belt use at every riding position . . . And I used to believe some of them, too.
I don't anymore. The slogan "Everyone Goes Home" becomes just a slogan if we don't do everything we can to protect ourselves.
[/quote]
I understand your point, and I respect your time on the job, but i'm going to respectfully disagree with you............I'll take the risk
FDNY New pumpers......... - Dickey - 01-02-2013
I agree with the Chief. There is no excuse NOT to wear your seatbelt. I hope they put interlock devices on fire trucks that prevent it from being shifted into gear without everyone wearing one. Yes our job is dangerous and this one small preventable things we can do. In my opinion, there is no valid excuse for not wearing your seatbelt. In fact, our city will not cover your bills if it is proven you were not wearing your seatbelt.
FDNY New pumpers......... - jgroutley - 01-05-2013
[quote name='Crossbronxxpress' timestamp='1357090798' post='506689']
I understand your point, and I respect your time on the job, but i'm going to respectfully disagree with you............I'll take the risk
[/quote]
Marc - you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when you come to work you are expected to follow the policies that are established by the fire department that pays you to ride in its vehicles. I am quite sure that official FDNY policies require you to be seated and to fasten your seatbelt whenever your apparatus is in motion. I don't think that Commissioner Cassano or Chief of Department Kilduff are going to give you an exemption from that policy because you disagree with it.
Lieutenant Wilbur has succeeded in having a much more user-friendly seatbelt system developed and installed in almost every vehicle in the FDNY fleet to make it easier for you to comply with the official policy. He, along with a lot of old guys like Chief Reeves and myself, has also been working hard to change the safety culture of fire departments and firefighters so that fastening seatbelts and many other safety measures will become accepted practices instead of inconveniences. We would like you to think that it is important to fasten your seatbelt for your own safety, but for now we will be satisfied if you just follow the rules so we won't have to deal with another LODD that could have been avoided.
Back when we started SCBAs were a novelty and reserved for "emergency use only" - now you wouldn't think of going into a fire without one. We used to ride on the outside of the apparatus and hold on tight. The limits of acceptable risk behavior are continually evolving and there will always be guys who disagree, but at some point you have to comply or stay home.
If you were a member of my fire department and you told me that you don't use your seatbelt I would remind you that you had better comply with the policy or be prepared to take some unscheduled vacation. That doesn't mean that I don't like you and respect your opinion - - - in fact I like you enough to insist that you don't take stupid risks.
Please be safe so I can see you next time I am in the Bronx.
FDNY New pumpers......... - Marc - 01-05-2013
[quote name='JGRoutley' timestamp='1357413656' post='507016']
Marc - you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when you come to work you are expected to follow the policies that are established by the fire department that pays you to ride in its vehicles. I am quite sure that official FDNY policies require you to be seated and to fasten your seatbelt whenever your apparatus is in motion. I don't think that Commissioner Cassano or Chief of Department Kilduff are going to give you an exemption from that policy because you disagree with it.
Lieutenant Wilbur has succeeded in having a much more user-friendly seatbelt system developed and installed in almost every vehicle in the FDNY fleet to make it easier for you to comply with the official policy. He, along with a lot of old guys like Chief Reeves and myself, has also been working hard to change the safety culture of fire departments and firefighters so that fastening seatbelts and many other safety measures will become accepted practices instead of inconveniences. We would like you to think that it is important to fasten your seatbelt for your own safety, but for now we will be satisfied if you just follow the rules so we won't have to deal with another LODD that could have been avoided.
Back when we started SCBAs were a novelty and reserved for "emergency use only" - now you wouldn't think of going into a fire without one. We used to ride on the outside of the apparatus and hold on tight. The limits of acceptable risk behavior are continually evolving and there will always be guys who disagree, but at some point you have to comply or stay home.
If you were a member of my fire department and you told me that you don't use your seatbelt I would remind you that you had better comply with the policy or be prepared to take some unscheduled vacation. That doesn't mean that I don't like you and respect your opinion - - - in fact I like you enough to insist that you don't take stupid risks.
Please be safe so I can see you next time I am in the Bronx.
[/quote]
Like I said in a previous post, I wear my seatbelt 100% of the time when i'm driving the rig, and I have no problem whatsoever doing it.................. If NOT wearing my seatbelt, when riding in the back, causes me to take an "Unscheduled Vacation", then I guess the job better be prepared to pay out a ton of overtime to guys who will be covering all of the shifts of other guys who will be on "Unscheduled vacations" also..............
And you're welcome to come to my firehouse at anytime
Not trying to be disrespectful either............Just a realist............
FDNY New pumpers......... - Guest - 01-09-2013
I have heard KME people SWEAR "KME" is building the new FDNY Engines... I questioned KME on their facebook as to why there is no press release... The Contract was NOT awarded yet. Others are saying it was signed. What gives?
Is there an issues since NO CONTRACT was signed or awarded??? Or was it and no one is talking about it. I have heard 2 times that "my FDNY Source said its a done deal"... and "someone I know at KME said..."
Where can we get some proof what is going on for FDNY and this new Engine Contract? We have 8 pages here of he said-he said....
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FDNY New pumpers......... - KDWMAEMT - 01-09-2013
My guess here is that whomever is running their facebook account doesnt know much about whats going on. Thats not to say they are wrong, but several reliable sources and people "in the know" have reported that the contrat had been awarded and awarded to KME. That INCLUDES the folks at FAJ whom are VERY reliable and correct 99% of 100% of the time. There is no law or reason that states KME has to say anything to anyone. Youd think they would, but they dont have to. I know that every time I pick up Fire Apparatus Magazine, I read the new orders section and learn about new apparatus orders that I had NO IDEA about, and I live in an area where most orders both upcoming and placed, are reported in SEVERAL places before the ink drys on the contract. Heck, I contacted KME about if they were coming out with a 2013 calendar for sale on their store website. They told me next week....8 weeks ago.