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Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Aaronw - 08-06-2014
I've tried online searches but haven't been able to find anything solid.
Just wondering if anyone had a list of the largest apparatus makers? I assume "largest" would be based on annual sales.
Top 10, Top 20?
Strictly curiosity, I read somewhere that ALF was in the #5 spot when they went under and it got me to thinking where the others fall.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - KENTucky - 08-06-2014
Good question. Here's my educated guess on a Top 10. I actually ask "numbers" at FDIC every year...and often get honest ballpark answers. "Largest" could be based on number of units produced or overall sales dollars. But, I think that for the most part, both fall in line with each other. And, we're talking purely domestic numbers, excluding exports.
There is no question on the top 3. I'm pretty certain Ferrara and E\-One are 4/5. I'm also pretty certain on the bottom 5, but their order is more debatable.
1. Pierce
2. Rosenbauer
3. KME
4. Ferrara
5. E\-One
6. Spartan ERV
7. Smeal
8. Sutphen
9. HME
10.Seagrave
As for the next 10, I'd throw these guys in...in no particular rank - 4 Guys, Alexis, Custom Fire, Marion, Midwest Fire, Precision, Spencer, SVI, Toyne, and US Tanker. All of those guys, with the exception of one, can count high end/high dollar custom deliveries and visible trade show presence. The exception is Midwest Fire (mostly rural rigs/commercial tankers), who I threw in just for sheer number of units delivered.
Again, my guesses are based on what dealers have actually told me and my own research (I'm a stat nerd).
Kent Parrish
Louisville, KY
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Aaronw - 08-07-2014
Thanks Kent, it was just idle curiosity so an educated guess works for me.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - firescooby - 08-08-2014
Sutphen built 232 trucks in 2013. Sure that's a small number in comparison to the mass builders.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - npfd801 - 08-10-2014
I'd bet Toyne is doing in the 80-100 range now annually. Pretty sure they were in the 70's when I sold the brand, and the bottleneck was paint. Now that they have a new and larger paint facility, they can put out considerably more.
I'd be really curious how close the top two or three are to one another now.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Roto-Ray - 08-10-2014
4-Guys is doing 75-100 per year now, the try to delivery 1.5 to 2 rigs per week.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - OPEN CAB MACK - 08-10-2014
Taylor, for the last 3 years, 2011, 2012 and 2013, 4-Guys has built the same number of rigs, give or take 1-2. They have received a number of orders recently and look to have a good 2014. That doesn't include the refurbs and other modifications that they perform throughout each year.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Roto-Ray - 08-10-2014
Quote:Taylor, for the last 3 years, 2011, 2012 and 2013, 4-Guys has built the same number of rigs, give or take 1-2. They have received a number of orders recently and look to have a good 2014. That doesn't include the refurbs and other modifications that they perform throughout each year.
Thanks, Ed. I was going by what I was told at the factory yesterday - they gave me that ballpark figure.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Guest - 08-11-2014
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There is no question on the top 3. I'm pretty certain Ferrara and E-One are 4/5. I'm also pretty certain on the bottom 5, but their order is more debatable.
1. Pierce
2. Rosenbauer
3. KME
4. Ferrara
5. E-One
6. Spartan ERV
7. Smeal
8. Sutphen
9. HME
10.SeagraveI wonder how long Rosenbauer will stay at No 2. I find their genesis to be somewhat similar to ALF's.
I know they don't have the same workmanship/quality issues that ALF had, but it still reminds me of ALF who was once a great empire and now just a warehouse being auctionned off!
I would also think that 3 and 5 would be interchanged.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Roto-Ray - 08-11-2014
I'm curious as to what makes you feel like Rosenbauer will end up being an empty warehouse in a few years?
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Guest - 08-11-2014
It's not that I think that they will end up like ALF, but I find that they are similar in a way because they both are a melting pot of many mid-size or regional builders. Central States, General Safety and RK for Rosenbauer as well as 3D, Becker, Southern Coach, Boardman, RD Murray, LTI, AI and Snorkel for ALF. Spartan ERV is the same being basically a conglomerate of what used to be Luverne and Quality.
A decade or so ago, ALF was at its peak like Rosenbauer is today. When you look at the list, at one time, E\-One was at the very top. All that to say that things seem to be dynamic in this business. Hopefully, no more of the big players will go under anytime soon.
Anyway, I'm no business expert, so my opinion isn't worth very much ...
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Reliance - 08-11-2014
Did Quality not go with Spartan ERV with the link up of Luverne
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Guest - 08-11-2014
True ... My mistake, it should had said General Safety instead of Quality.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Roto-Ray - 08-11-2014
One of the things that has occurred in the industry that can make comparisons difficult is the massive impact that the recession had on sales figures. Manufacturers will tell you that their sales dropped off as much as 50% a few years ago, and it's taking a very long time for them to recover from that.
You have to wonder, would Quality, Becker, and many of the smaller or regional manufacturers have been able to survive the recession? Naturally, we'll never know, but you have to wonder how many manufacturers can the US (or Canadian for that matter) fire service really support at any one time?
Regional manufacturers will forever have a place in the market, as will the "big guys." The key to success is good fiscal and personnel management, no matter the size of the company.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Aaronw - 08-12-2014
Well as this is actually developing into a bit of discussion I've got several new questions.
I didn't know builders in the 100-ish range would make the top 20, so for comparison what kind of numbers do the top three turn out in an average year?
Among the smaller builders, was Darley overlooked, or are they no longer a factor in completed apparatus?
Quite a lot of smaller mid-west / east coast builders listed. Any idea on some of the west coast builders?
Boise Mobile Equipment claims about 85 deliveries a year at their website which would put them in the same ballpark as Toyne and 4 Guys.
Not sure about some others Westates, West-Mark, Hi-Tech, Phenix Truck Bodies, Burton's Fire, SVI, Wildcat. I know some of these are likely in the single to low double digits per year, complete apparatus being a sideline but since I have no idea, some (I'm guessing maybe West-Mark in particular) could be much higher.
Anyone know about how many rigs S&S was doing a year when they shut down? Seemed like they were doing quite well and then, gone. Understand the parent company lost interest rather than sales issues.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - npfd801 - 08-12-2014
Rosenbauer's got a substantial backer/parent with deep pockets in Europe. They aren't going anywhere. Globally the Rosenbauer group easily sells more apparatus than any other. They were even building rolling ARFF chassis without bodies for export overseas in Minnesota, not sure if they still are but it was neat to see stuff going the opposite direction for once.
I would suspect the Minnesota division's business is close to 300 a year by now. I might be estimating high, but many of their dealers are finding customers that love the high end style of build and customization that the Minnesota folks will do. Even the stuff coming out of South Dakota is much better looking than it was at one time. If you specify correctly, you can do a very reasonable, well built stainless rig out of the old Central plant unless they discontinued that line. There were rigs out of that plant that I wasn't particularly thrilled with, but I was also selling a custom engine for ridiculously low money to customers that had horrifyingly small budgets. They'll never wear out a 1/8" aluminum body with their call volume. I have been away from sales for a while now, and away from Rosenbauer even longer so my insights may be very wrong.
Remember, Spartan as a whole is losing money. In a bad way. Of the bigger builders, they'd be the next to be in trouble if I were a betting man. At some point shareholders are going to get angry.
KME seems to be doing very well luring in the big contracts for large orders of rigs. Remember Rosenbauer was doing a huge volume just for the Saudis, they at one time had a separate building just for assembly of these export rigs in SD. Pierce seems to get a fair amount of export work as well.
I know very little about Pierce aside from repeated gripes about diminishing quality, even coming from dedicated Pierce customers. I'd seriously consider them for our next rig, but they're insanely high in this area against the competition. I know in other areas their dealers try to more competitive, but not here.
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - npfd801 - 08-12-2014
Regarding Darley they seem to do much fewer rigs than in the past, and only in poly now I believe...
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - KENTucky - 08-17-2014
Again, like Taylor, I flat out ask at trade shows and often get honest answers. Here is what I've been told over the past few shows.
Pierce: 1000-1200 a year (including exports)
Rosenbauer: 800 a year (excluding exports)
KME: 600-800 a year
Ferrara: 500-600 a year
E\-One: 400 a year
Spartan ERV: 300-400 a year
Smeal: 250-300 a year
Sutphen: as said above, around 220 a year (as high as 300 before)
HME: 200-300 a year
Seagrave: around 80 last year, on pace for 50 this year (but all high dollar rigs)
I've also been told Toyne and 4 Guys are 75-100 a year.
Builders like Alexis, Custom Fire, Marion, Midwest, Precision, Spencer, and SVI are between 30-50 a year.
Most of BME's deliveries are comparatively low dollar - wildland and brush trucks. West Coast builders like Westates, West-Mark, Hi-Tech, Burton's, ect are in the 25-50 range. Further east, you have builders like Southeast (formerly Wynn) who do around 25 a year. Summit only does about 15 a year, but most of them are high dollar custom rescues, rescue-pumpers, and industrial rigs. Bluegrass does about 15 year, mostly tankers. There are scores of other regional builders in the 15-20 range.
All that said, the market used to report about 5000 new apparatus a year. The industry has cried that number has dropped as low as 3000 recently. I've always heard that Pierce had about 20% of the market share to itself, the rest of the top 15 manufacturers shared another 60%, and the everyone else fought over the remaining 20%. So, if add up all the numbers above...somebody is lying. LOL.
I still think my top 10 is pretty solid, ranking wise...and Seagrave could be swapped out with Toyne or 4 Guys. But, as mentioned, Spartan ERV is bleeding bad. Who knows how long they'll survive. And I know for fact that Pierce has been in trouble...Oshkosh just reported horrific sales numbers with government contracts and Pierce sharing quite a bit of the blame. I think most people on here seem to agree their quality isn't what it used to be. I can see Rosenbauer overtaking them sooner rather than later. If KME continues their great quality improvement, I can see them also passing Pierce one day.
Kent Parrish
Louisville, KY
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Reliance - 08-17-2014
Kent: Where does Pierce stand if you take out the exports?
Apparatus makers ranking by sales? - Juice - 08-17-2014
What about companies like Welch or Simon? How do they keep busy and have full time employees all year around? Summit and Bluegrass I would even kind of ask that about.