Spec writing consultants

[roadman]

Hi all,

 

We're in the beginning stages of planning a new piece of apparatus for our department. In the past, the chief ordered what he felt was right for our job. Most times that consisted of picking up the cheapest available demo on the lot of his preferred dealer.

 

Our current chief has been very good about soliciting input from the rank and file. We took delivery last year of a new engine that was built with a good deal of thought from a committee of guys on the job. We worked with a specific manufacturer to develop a spec.

 

I have seen and read a lot about the use of an apparatus consultant in developing a specification. Being involved in our last engine purchase, we have come to realize that it is very difficult for firefighters without any experience to write a comprehensive apparatus specification.

 

Can anyone weigh in on the use of a consultant - cost, worth it, not worth it, etc. Anyone have a recommendation? Keep in mind we're a municipal dept. in Massachusetts (read: no $$$)  

[Roto-Ray]

My suggestion:  Tom Shand and Mike Wilbur with [url=http://www.emergencyvehicleresponse.com/...tfile/home]Emergency Vehicle Response[/url].  In full disclosure, Tom is a friend, but you'll find few people in the industry that have the knowledge that Tom does.  Tom is also a member here at Firepics.

 

The use of a consultant is a great thing for those departments that don't purchase apparatus on a regular basis.  You'll want someone who knows all of the facets of design and construction, including weight distribution, wiring, pump selection, body options, dimensions, and the like.  Any consultant worth their weight has already faced these issues with previous customers (and while they were either employed in the industry or were on spec committees for their own departments) and can help you avoid pitfalls.  Furthermore, consultants will know the techniques used by the sales staff and can help your department focus on what's important.

 

I have served as a consultant to a couple of departments locally and have enjoyed the experience - it's nice to be able to help fire chiefs nearby ensure that they're getting the best value AND the best vehicle for the monies set aside by the taxpayers.

 

ETA:  I think my post might have come across as saying that a consultant is absolutely necessary for the specification and purchase of a new rig - obviously, it's not.  You can work with different manufacturer's reps to come up with a spec, but unless you specifically know how to interpret specs, there's a very real chance you'll publish a spec that only a single vendor can come close to complying with.  Many of us can pick up a set of specs and within 2 minutes know which manufacturer put the bid package together.  It's a cause of inflated prices and non-competitive bidding - not something that many municipal departments want to be faced with.

[roadman]

Thanks, Taylor!

 

I have checked out Emergency Vehicle Response, Tom and Mike are the first names I thought of. I have no connection to them, I've just spent many years reading their columns! Any idea on cost associated with their services? I don't recall seeing any sort of price quote on their site. Of course, I understand if a consultant would rather keep those sort of things between them and their clients. I'd just like to arm myself with some info to pitch to the chief to convince him we need help.

 

We've gone the manufacturer rep before - that's how we spec'ed our most recent engine, and how the previous chief procured apparatus. He preferred a certain make and he was able to ensure that one particular company won the bid. In the case of the engine we just bought, we worked with a rep to develop a spec and that manufacturer ended up losing the bid to someone else!

[Guest]

The recently retired Chief Reeves (also a member on this site) could give you a lot of input regarding whether or nor it's worth it.

[roadman]

Thanks RM... I've been reading his thread about the most recent Syracuse deliveries.

[fyreline]

Ah, the Fire Apparatus Consultant . . . a subject near and dear to my heart. I have done some of this for other departments (and I'm not looking for business) so I will tell you what I think, and I hope it will be helpful. Taylor is entirely correct in that a consultant is not always necessary . . . however, they can be extremely useful (and cost-effective) for those departments that lack the expertise to write their own bid specifications. Unfortunately, I have rarely met a department that did not - at least initially - feel that they were all experts and did not require any "outsider" telling them what they should buy. Eventually, most of them come around to the understanding that a modern fire apparatus is an extremely complex piece of machinery, and several different layers of laws, rules, regulations and requirements apply to them. In today's litigious society where anyone can sue anyone for anything, it's important to pay attention to all of those things. They also eventually realize that long-time Apparatus Committee member Cletus, although he drives a dump truck for the county, may not in fact be their best resident expert because "He knows trucks". Likewise, ex-Chief Smith, who has been a member of the Apparatus Committee since . . . well, since anyone can remember, may not be as "up to date" on current NFPA, DOT and EPA requirements as he needs to be. It's been a while since that 1947 500 gpm Peter Pirsch he helped the department buy (They were great trucks, by the way . . . for their time). Then there's the current Chief's son, who is on the committee to either (A) Keep an eye on things and make sure the Chief's buddy who works for an apparatus manufacturer gets the bid, or worse yet, (B) Is there because he's the Chief's son, dammit, and Daddy said so.  Now, don't get me entirely wrong here - there are actually Apparatus Committees that function well. They are rare, but they're out there. Typically, the successful ones are small, spend a lot of time talking and even more listening, and don't let any manufacturer write their specs for them. I know when I first became Chairman of the Apparatus Advisory Committee in 1996, I took two years to write the bid specifications for a series of four 2000 gpm engines with 50-foot TeleSqurt booms. TWO YEARS, starting with a clean sheet of paper. Remember that unless you are in an "emergency purchase" situation, it's much more important to get it right than to get it right now. Your department should have a Capital Improvements Plan (ours runs over a six-year period), and update it every year. That way purchases can be planned for, funding can be arranged, and any necessary political battles can be fought. Always start with a Mission Statement: What will this vehicle be required to do? Where will it respond from, and to? With how many personnel? What is their level of training? What does your district look like . . . special hazards, limiting roads or bridges, etc.?  As you can see, all of this can be a bit daunting, even for some pretty large full-time paid departments with the luxury of assigning personnel to work on drawing up the specifications. For many smaller departments, it's just not realistic to expect them to be able to do this critical job well.

 

And this is where a consultant can help. A good one (Like Tom Shand & Mike Wibur's Emergency Vehicle Response firm) will ask the right questions. While I have always been happy to provide a copy of our apparatus specs to other departments, I always stress to them that what's right for the City of Syracuse may be a poor choice for their department. You need to do the homework, invest the time, and get it right. Your firefighters and the citizens they protect deserve no less. Most good consultants charge a percentage of the cost of the delivered vehicle, and it can be well worth it. Some charge a flat fee. ASK. The cost of being saddled with a rig that performs poorly, does not meet your needs, or that you just plain don't like is pretty damned high, very long lasting, and tends to stick in the memory of your members (and local politicians) with short fuses and long memories. A good consultant will assess your department's needs, work within the budgetary constraints you give them, and not have any particular axe to grind for or against any particular manufacturer. I frequently hear comments from fire departments concerning how the brand of truck they buy is the only one worth a damn, or even more frequently how this or that manufacturer builds nothing but junk. Neither of those things is true. I have, over the last 40+ years, heard horror stories about every single manufacturer now in business, and most of those who are no longer with us. Conversely, I firmly believe that any one of the current major manufacturers is capable of building your department a quality, reliable apparatus. About 90% of it is in the specifications that you provided to them . . . they built what you said you wanted.

 

Know what you want - or more importantly, what you need. Know how to ask for it, how to ensure you get it, and how to tell whether or not you got it when the vehicle is inspected. Good consultants will be with you through the entire process . . . design, specifications writing, the bid process, assessment of proposals, award of bid, the pre-build construction conference at the manufacturer's facility, the mid-point construction conference when the chassis is essentially complete but the body is not yet mounted where it will hide a lot, and the final inspection where a line-by-line review of YOUR bid specifications for compliance is done. These trips are not vacation junkets - take as few people as possible, and leave your golf clubs home. You're going to be inside, underneath and on top of this vehicle all day long. Yes, it's work . . . but it's worth it. When the new rig backs into quarters, and especially after it gets its first few fires under its belt, that quiet, passing comment from one of your senior drivers . . . "Nice rig" . . . will tell you you've done your job. Hope some of this was helpful. Don't be afraid to ask for help, but be careful where the help comes from. Manufacturer's representatives will be all too happy to make the Apparatus Committee's job "easy" for them. Don't take the easy way out. Good luck.

[roadman]

Thanks so much, Chief for your insightful, detailed comments!

 

Good news - we're still about 2+ years out from putting something out to bid. Bad? We are that committee - a bunch of guys on the job that showed an interest in improving the equipment we work on everyday, with no real specification writing expertise. I think we did well with our recent engine purchase. A dealer rep did assist us with specs, basically wrote it for us and then couldn't deliver the bid in time for the bid opening. The winning bid was the only manufacturer that came in on budget (and on time!!). Not the make we originally intended but it's a solid truck that everyone seems pleased with. Speaks to your point that any builder is capable of building a quality piece of equipment. I'm in full agreement with you on that.

 

If you don't mind, I'd like to forward your comments on to the rest of my committee and Chief. I know my committee is on board with seeking help, just not sure if the front office is willing or able to pay for it.

 

Thanks again!

[Guest]

Any ideas on what these Fire Apparatus Consultants Charge??

[fyreline]

Mike, I have no problem with your sharing my comments with your department . . . Realistically, my advice to anyone is not to post anything on the internet that you wouldn't put on a big billboard next to a busy freeway, with your name under it. There is also a good book called The Fire Apparatus Purchasing Guidebook by William C. Peters. It's about $40 and is available many places on the internet. Bill also offers a video on performing factory inspections. Those are good places to start. Take your time, and get it right. While the input of manufacturer's representatives can be helpful, don't let them write your specifications for you. I realize it's tough to do it all on your own, and that's where a good consultant can help. In your department's situation, the expense might be well justified. The first time a vendor sues your department because your specifications are "exclusionary" (because another manufacturer actually wrote them, or most of them)', the cost of that consultant will look minuscule. Contact a few of them, tell them what you want them to do, and ask them what they will charge. I won't speak for them on what they charge . . . But those who charge too much (or deliver too little) don't stay in business long. Stay safe, and again, good luck.

[Guest]

I am project lead on my department's new hazmat vehicle.  We are one of the largest fire departments in Canada with 47 stations and 1400 firefighters.  We started putting information together in 2009, first very unorganized, but then we started to step it up in 2011.  Regular meetings were the norm.  We had a period where we asked for input from the rest of the hazmat techs, but there was a closing date for their input, in order to keep things running.  Our initial working group comprised of 3 members from hazmat. I was the only one who had been involved in apparatus specs, but that was limited.  As we got going, we brought in another hazmat tech as our computer and IT lead.  We were assigned another member to our group, a former truck mechanic who has been hired by our city as a spec writer.  He has a lot of experience with this, and it certainly helped.  This truck is a very technical unit, and we would have struggled without his experience to write our specs properly.  As it is, we are going to tender in 2 weeks.  So it took 5 years for us to work through everything, and I am sure we will have an excellent truck that will serve the city for a long time.

 

My advice, based on my experience, if you don't have someone with the skill set for spec writing, invest the dollars in someone who does.  It will save a lot of headaches and future hassles.

[roadman]

Thanks for your input, ladder13! Great to hear from multiple voices that are in process. 

 

I should note (if I haven't before) that we are going to be replacing our 100' rear mount ladder with a platform type apparatus. It has been the Chief's goal since getting into the front office to go this route. Not sure if it's necessary or just a vanity thing- either way it will be a huge change for us and the way we operate. That fact alone leads me to believe we're in need of some guidance.

 

I would love to follow your progress and maybe, if you have time, could you go into a bit more detail about your process to date?

[LCFR1620]

Roadman,

 

I started doing apparatus "stuff" in the mid 90's and like you guys started as a group attempting to write some specs for a new engine. That to say the least it was a learning experience. We used a spec from a dealer and it went to bid. The bid was won by the original dealer and to be honest it wasn't a bad truck, but defiently was more on the line of what the dealer and manufacturer wanted and less of what we actually needed. It served well or should I say "ok" for the years it was in service, but the between the lines things that we missed definetly came back to bite us. Many of these things were due to the inexperience and the fact that the erra of the apparatus had changed significantly from the last purchased unit in the station.

Later on in life I was in charge of a ladder/tower project much like the one that you all are taking on.  We were going from a rear mount ladder to a rear mount platform. Taking what I learned from the engine project things ran a little better. We invited as many aerial builders to bring a unit to our area. We had a specific route planned as well as specific tasks that we wanted the aerial to perform. This gave us a chance to evaluate mid mounts platforms, rear mount platforms as well as rear mount ladders.  After the evaluation we were able to "see" exactly what the lastest and greatest was as well as how they performed on out turf. After each manufacturer brought their unit to us, we were able to write our spec specific of what we wanted to accomplish with aerial and we were able to fill in between the lines. Now, I won't say everything was perfect, but things seemed to work well and the truck has been very reliable.

I am now fortunate to be on the apparatus committee for my job and it is has definetly helped me keep up on the latest laws, rules and regulations. If you need any help or have any questions feel free to drop me a note.

[roadman]

Thanks, Tech20!

 

Who was involved in writing the spec for your tower? Did you choose a manufacturer and go that route? Or were you and your committee able to write it yourselves? 

 

We are trying to "test drive" as many variants as dealers in our area have available. We're also trying to come up with some sort of rating system for each type: rear mount, mid mount, rear mount straight stick, etc. Ideally, we will have a day or two where we can demo the truck on some of our high risk occupancies, not just on the ramp in front of the station.

[LCFR1620]

Roadman,

 

We took copies of everyone's spec and pieced it together staying brand specific for components and specific things that we wanted. We stayed away from using anyone in particular's spec for dimensions and actual construction technics. We did however specify that the aerial was to be a certain metal, steel or aluminum. This was based upon some prior experiences and how we felt they performed. At the time, it was a big push for "sole source" for warranty issues and felt that we would get a better product. This though has changed over the last several years as it seems that more and more manufacturer's that are not so much the "big" players are working with the Commercial EVT certified service companies to allow them to do warranty work. This however can be written into the spec to make sure who is responsible for all aspects of the unit during the warranty period. You can be fair across the board when doing an open bid process and get exactly what you want. You just have to make sure that it is clear to all bidders that if they can not meet or if they excede the spec in any area that they provide a description on an addedum or exception sheet. This will allow you to keep the proverbial "apples to apples and oranges to oranges" comparison. It also ensures that there are no hidden adgenda's by the dealer or manufacturer. If you do indeed  use someone's base spec for bid purposes you need to be able to allow the other bidders the opportunity to bid their product but use the exception/addendum sheet to show the differences in perhaps construction technics, material thickness differences or even paint technics. It may just creat a little more work for you on the receiving end of the bids. It takes more time to review and you will see more exceptions that you may care to see.

 

Hope this helps some...