RK aerial tipping alert

[ff002]

New platform being checked by mechanics...set up on hill.....note back outrigger OFF the ground as truck "Teeter tottered" on front outriggers.....PM me if you use RK ladders for more safety info.......

[Truckman]

A mechanic on the turntable is it?



Three members of the department in the platform?



We would never allow members in the platform if a mechanic was "testing" the aerial.



It appears that whoever set the truck up didn't know what they were doing, be it a mechanic or a members of the department. Interlocks should keep the aerial from being raised or move either left or right. If they were able to retract the aerial then I would suspect the out riggers returned back to earth.



There is a great danger of twisting or buckling the frame on this truck and if the platform has fallen, leaving it in this street load will make it fall.



If the mechanics are going to play with a costly ride as this, then no fire members should be in the platform.



Hopefully there isn't any damage done. I would hope that this department would get some from a certifiable aerial ladder testing firm to come in and test this ride before allowing it to be used as an aerial device.

[ff002]

[quote name='Truckman' date='05 October 2009 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1254756192' post='341012']

A mechanic on the turntable is it?



Three members of the department in the platform?



We would never allow members in the platform if a mechanic was "testing" the aerial.



It appears that whoever set the truck up didn't know what they were doing, be it a mechanic or a members of the department. Interlocks should keep the aerial from being raised or move either left or right. If they were able to retract the aerial then I would suspect the out riggers returned back to earth.



There is a great danger of twisting or buckling the frame on this truck and if the platform has fallen, leaving it in this street load will make it fall.



If the mechanics are going to play with a costly ride as this, then no fire members should be in the platform.



Hopefully there isn't any damage done. I would hope that this department would get some from a certifiable aerial ladder testing firm to come in and test this ride before allowing it to be used as an aerial device.

[/quote]

The person on the turntable is from RK, who along with the mechanics in the bucket, were going to show us silly firefighters that it must have been our fault when we have had our problems with these trucks. ALL OUTRIGGERS WERE ON THE GROUND AT THE START OF THIS TEST!!!!!! When the RK "expert" started to climb the ladder to prove that their claim of four people in the bucket is safe, the rear outriggers came off the ground, the truck teeter tottered on the front outriggers, which RK will tell you can never happen. The bucket dropped a few few as the weight came off the back. Whewn the RK expert scurried hurriedly back down the ladder, the bucket then bounced back up. There appears to be inherit design flaws and safety concerns with these. This has nothing to do with interlocks or moving the aerial.

[Russell]

Despite debate, discussion, pros versus mere observers, these ladder trucks seem to be the source of attention. Since they first arrived in the city of Ottawa, they have been at the centre of controversy. The Forward Street fire where three firefighters were seriously injured after jumping from a third story window. The firefighters were over-come by fire, and had to make a rapid exit. During this frantic situation, Ladder 11 out on the street was trying to extend to an adjacent window. This could not be accomplished because the one of the stabilizers lifted off the ground. Recently all the units were removed from service, to have issues with the control's addressed. I don't know the full details, however, some firefighters on the board have had experience with these issues. I spoke with a member on the job the other day, and he told me about an incident involving Ladder 22 "teetering" on the forward legs. This was during training. To mine limited knowledge, this is another issue involving these virtually brand new rigs. I gather new orders regarding the operations of these ladders has been sent out to the troops.



When you look at the E\-One ladders OFS purchased in the early part of the decade, shortly after amalgamation. These ladders have stood up really well, every member I have talked too, loves these trucks. Maybe there is an argument for soul source builders? I know the Toronto crews like their Smeal rigs.



It is going to be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Guest]

What department did this apparatus belong to and who built it? Obviously the aerial was RK, but how about the chassis and body? Was the operator an employee of RK, body manufacturer, or the local dealership?



Jeff Hawkins

[Truckman]

[quote name='ffdrive' date='05 October 2009 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1254759786' post='341031']

The person on the turntable is from RK, who along with the mechanics in the bucket, were going to show us silly firefighters that it must have been our fault when we have had our problems with these trucks. ALL OUTRIGGERS WERE ON THE GROUND AT THE START OF THIS TEST!!!!!! When the RK "expert" started to climb the ladder to prove that their claim of four people in the bucket is safe, the rear outriggers came off the ground, the truck teeter tottered on the front outriggers, which RK will tell you can never happen. The bucket dropped a few few as the weight came off the back. Whewn the RK expert scurried hurriedly back down the ladder, the bucket then bounced back up. There appears to be inherit design flaws and safety concerns with these. This has nothing to do with interlocks or moving the aerial.

[/quote]





Having driven many types, brands and type and further being present when they were delivered by the factory and "their" man was there, had this happen in my department, they would have been rejected. Take them back and repair them or face the legal action. In all probality the City would have given the maker time to make the necessary repairs and be certified or they would have had a legal case to award the contract to the next bidder, leaving this company hold the bag, so to speak, with their faulty apparatus.

[Guest]

Just bolt about 400 lbs. of steel under the ass end that should take care of it.

[Guest]

Maybe that's why ALFs & AerialScopes have FRONT Bumper Jacks/Stabilizers.....

[Guest]

If one guy posts a photo and description of an event, you MAY be able to dismiss it as a "freak accident". Two or more guys post basically the same story about a piece of apparatus (same manufacturer) I'm starting to see a very unsettling trend. Somebody BETTER be improving their design, and pronto. Somebody's ...."got a lot of 'splainin to do...".

[Guest]

Doesnt RK make aerials for Rosenbauer? God I hope not, we just signed a contract here in Baltimore County for a 75' quint, built by Rosenbauer.

[Russell]

These rigs are;



MATADOR series

RK galvanized platform ladder 104 FT-4 sections

Spartan Gladiator Classic Chassis

Hale pump QMAX 1500 i.g.p.m.

300 i.g. tank

[Ladder 68]

I believe these are the rigs on Spartan chassis with body work by Carl Thibault. Is that correct?



RK isn't the only maker this has happend to. When training on a new ladder tower in HFD the same thing happened and the Pierce rep, there for the training, said it was OK...scary no matter who makes the rig.



In my department we would have done this test at the factory during the final inspection. If this would have happened we would have told them to keep the rig as we loaded up for the airport while calling city legal.

[ff002]

I started this topic because of safety concerns and wanting to ensure other depts check their rigs to ensure they don't have the same issues.



Issue one- the manufacturer.



The rigs in question were built on Spartan cab and chassis, with the ladders installed by RK manufacturing. The ladders are Galvanized steel with the towers being 104 footers and the ladders being 109 footers. All of the trucks in question have pumps and water tanks.



The coachwork was done by Carl Thibault ltd.



Our department has had multiple problems with the rigs in question. The one that failed at the forward ave fire was not specified with a critical componet that would have allowed it to be overridden by reversing the operation just performed. So the overirde clicked on, and the aerial operator had to watch 5 brothers dive out windows. Two were lucky, as there was a porch roof that they landed on. The other three had to jump from a third floor window. Their injuries included fractures, burns and broken teeth. The recovery was long and slow. Our safety officer ordered that the rig that failed not be moved until the labor board arrived. Unfortunately, this did not happen, resulted in inconclusive investigation. (read between the lines)



The next rig that came had almost a minute difference to set it up and extend it. Each subsequent rig that has arrived responds differently and the timing is different.



The next issue is the slow close valves, so that the ladder doesnt get jarred if you release the control too fast.The problem is that when extended 109 feet and you take your hand off the control, the tip would keep moving- depending on the truck up to 15 feet! We have tried to solve this by keeping our hand on the emergency stop button and jamming it on to keep it from hitting the building.



The teeter totter did not happen just once. The first time, it was suggested that it must have been some dumb firefighter that didnt know what he was doing. So along came the experts to prove how dumb we are, and guess what- the picture doesnt lie. There are some red faced people that wish that this problem would go away.



The latest alert I have read is that we are not to take the tires off the ground. That has now effectively eliminated using the truck on hills in our city. The manufacturer has admitted there was no operator error.



There is a long list of complaints, and if you have one of these "things", send me a personal message and I can get you in touch with the people that have the official reports.



I could say much, much more, but the liability filter and career disappation light says that I have said enough.



Learn from our mistakes- test your rigs, ensure they meet the specs, and send them back if they dont work, and for God's sake dont order more if you have ongoing problems. On a good note, they do look shiney in my station.



stay safe, Brothers!

[edburke]

Might this be better served at the Firefighter Safety forum at [url="http://www.firereview.net/00000/"]firereview.net[/url]? Not on a buff site?

[ff002]

[quote name='edburke' date='05 October 2009 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1254789410' post='341117']

Might this be better served at the Firefighter Safety forum at [url="http://www.firereview.net/00000/"]firereview.net[/url]? Not on a buff site?

[/quote]



Sorry Ed...didn't mean to cause a stir....pull her down if you think it is inappropriate....Thanks

[edburke]

[quote name='ffdrive' date='05 October 2009 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1254791638' post='341122']

Sorry Ed...didn't mean to cause a stir....pull her down if you think it is inappropriate....Thanks

[/quote]



Not a problem, just watching where it seems to be going (which is a direction I don't think you anticipated), it might be better off over there.

[edburke]

I have copied the entire thread over to Fire Review.net



It can be viewed [url="http://www.firereview.net/00000/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25"]here[/url]



The thread at Firepics is now closed.