City of Syracuse Chooses KME

[TacSupport1]

Looks like Syracuse is going with KME Engines with "Firestix" 55' ladder/elevated waterway.



[url="http://www.kovatch.com/News/13-01-15/City_of_Syracuse_Chooses_KME.aspx"]http://www.kovatch.c...hooses_KME.aspx[/url]



I know Syracuse loves their Sutphens....is the KME order because Sutphen doesn't offer a elevated waterway/light duty ladder product? Hopefully Chief Reeves will fill us in.

[fyreline]

Basically, that's the fact. We had four bidders (American LaFrance, Sutphen, KME and Pierce). The specifications called for a 50' TeleSqurt "or equivalent", and KME was the lowest compliant bidder. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

[TacSupport1]

Does Sutphen have a TeleSquirt equivalent?

[fyreline]

No, Sutphen does nothing rear mount at all. They make a 70' mid-mount aerial, that's about the closest (and that's what they bid), but the overall size of the vehicle was too big. It was also understandably a bit more pricey than the others. This bid was for one unit only, so we'll see how it goes. A September delivery is scheduled . . . Stay tuned!

[Guest]

its ashame this is what the fire servide has come too, they are not city trucks at all good luck it will be OOS more than in service!!!!!!!!!!!! Ours is complete junk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Juice]

OH NO!!!!! I literally had a blank exp<b></b>ression on my face as soon as I read this! Well, at the very least I hope it has a square grille. Those new things they're making look hideous! <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Trav!

[fyreline]

Believe me, I've heard all the horror stories. Syracuse had a series of five KME engines in 1990, and they were not quality units. We hadn't bought any since. But, that was than and this is now. Our specs are pretty comprehensive, and we did a lot of homework with larger cities that are KME users before awarding the bid. We intend to make certain we get what we asked for - that part is easy. The reliability and service after the sale are what will make or break the experience. About all I can promise you for sure is that this rig will get a workout, and KME is aware of that and how much business is riding on this vehicle being successful. I expect them to do their very best, and we'll see just how good that turns out to be.

[cml0774]

Didnt take long for the KME bashing to begin. We started using them in philly in the mid 90's; they are 15+ years old now and just started getting replaced with the lastest purchase of KMEs. The biggest complaint is the head room in the back because the city cheaped out and did not get raised roofs this time; they also eliminated the front suction and deck guns. The only problems are the new emissions with the DEF which is a problem with pretty much all fire trucks that are now being built. A certain west coast fire dept. that runs mostly Pierce trucks are having a huge problem with the new engine regulations spending thousands of dollars on replacing the engine filters.I believe they are trying to get fire apparatus except from the new engine emissions.

[Guest]

Having worked with a 1994 75' model Firestix boom, I can say theres nothing comprable to a telesqurt boom. The scrub of the rig we have is seriously lacking, and the nozzle travel is equal to that of a typical rear mount aerial, ie it cannot operate into first floor/storefronts and cannot go below about 20-30 degrees elevation over the side due to the lift cylinder design. Its a terribly inefficient design when compared to the versatility of a true telesqurt boom. If they have changed the design since then, I'd be curious to know if it positively impacted the useful working ranges of the boom.

[TacSupport1]

And the finished product....


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=...009&type=1

[fyreline]

This is actually the second unit, done as an add-on to the contract for the first one. That first unit has been in service at SFD Engine 1 since October, and has seen quite a bit of action. so far, so good. This second unit should enter service at Engine 2 on the busy North side in February. As I said in an earlier post, KME is fully aware of what they have riding on the continued success and reliability of these rigs. And of course, time will tell . . . Stay tuned.

[SOlsonBFDL14]

Over the past 3-4 years we've purchased 9 KME Pumpers, 3 Rearmounts, 1 Rescue and have 5 more Pumpers set to go into service and a Rearmount TL due to be delivered this summer. They've worked out well for us. The main complaint I've heard concerns the transmissions, but that's not a KME issue. I want to say we went from Detroit to Allison & there's been some problems there.

[fyreline]

That's pretty much what we heard from the cities we contacted, Skip. There are quite a few larger cities running newer KME equipment, and I made it a point to contact my opposite number (back when I was Chief of Maintenance, before I got promoted to Deputy Chief of Operations) at many of those departments to find out what their real-world experiences were. Most, if not all, of the issues were those chassis, engine, transmission and pump issues common to all fire apparatus manufacturers. I was particularly concerned with any electrical or construction quality issues, which turned up here and there, but not enough to suggest a pattern. Our specifications package is pretty comprehensive, and over the years my Maintenance Division personnel and I have learned what to look for, and how to work with the manufacturer to correct problems early in the construction process. I might say the same for American LaFrance Eagle apparatus - we have five TeleSqurt engines and a tandem-axle heavy rescue in the fleet, and they have given good service. Most of the issues we had with American LaFrance were with the company and their customer support, not the product. We developed some "work-arounds" to keep the parts supply coming, it will be interesting to see how this "third party" parts support will work out.


It doesn't take long for any - and I do mean ANY - fire apparatus manufacturer to get a bad name. All it really takes is one bad rig . . . Which may or may not be entirely the fault of the builder. Yes, there has been some junk out there over the years, but there have been just as many sets of specifications that called for exactly that junk. I've seen them. The new rig comes in, and it's underpowered, oversize, overweight, and is missing some key features. And it's 100% compliant with the specs the manufacturer was given. So, of course "All of those rigs are junk".


I do have to say that I entirely agree that any American LaFrance rig not built in Elmira should never have been called by that name. Just my opinion, of course.

[bfdjunior01]

Why weren't Q sirens Spec'd on the new KME's?  

[fyreline]

$$$$$$$

[bfdjunior01]

$$$$$$$

Gotcha.

[Cgrave616]

Thank you for the update on the Syracuse KMEs.  I have eight years in my career department and have been recently appointed to the apparatus committee.  As a KME fan, I tried to bring them in but it was not too successful, we are continuing our relationship with our current manufacturer.  Best of luck and I hope to hear about continued success with the rigs so that I can continue to make a push for future purchases.

 

Hope retirement is treating you well Chief... Although I mostly read and rarely post on here I have found your threads very interesting and insightful... Thank you

[fyreline]

Thanks for the kind words. Believe me, I understand how tough it can be to convince any apparatus committee to truly keep an open mind. The experience that Syracuse had with the last KME units we had purchased over 22 years ago was not good, and from that day forward KME apparatus was basically off the table for us. But that was than, and this is now. Companies and cultures change, especially in the fire apparatus field . . . Witness the recent inevitable demise of American LaFrance, and how the entire field has changed over the years. I felt that it was time to re-evaluate every manufacturer, although setting aside my own personal prejudices was probably the toughest sell of all. After all, people are not logical, they are psychological . . . And perception IS reality. All I would ask of your committee is to keep an open mind. After all, as all committees sometimes need to be reminded, it's not "their" money. Ask to see KME's facility, meet their people, walk through their factory. Talk to recent customers. This should be done with every manufacturer - leave no one out. They may end up surprised. Best of luck to you - and remember that the apparatus you buy will likely be there after at least some of you are retired, so don't just buy the one you "like" the best. Buy the rig that will best serve your firefighters and community the most reliably, at the lowest cost. Your personnel and your citizens deserve the best, and they are trusting you all to give it to them. It can be a daunting job, even before you bring the whole "committee" atmosphere into it.


Retirement has been great. Yes, I miss the guys, and the fireground. I do not miss the politics, the command staff meetings, the budgetary problems, and the endless nonsense that some folks seemed to think was actually important. Also, with the days-on-end below zero temperatures we recently experienced here in Upstate New York, I don't miss the Arctic Urban Firefighting. In fact, my wife and I are on a plane tomorrow morning heading for our place in Florida for six weeks. Time for a break.

[BFD190]

much deserved . have a grt. trip and enjoy your retirement.

[jim kay]

Thanks for your service to the citizens of Syracuse Chief... glad you and the family are enjoying your retirement... I still follow the SFD some even though most all of my family has moved south to Virginia... enjoy your time in Florida