Quote:If the issue with the KME's is the engines, as opposed to the rest of the KME vehicle, why not just repower them with new engines? Expensive sure,but cheaper than replacing so many relatively new vehicles.
Sometimes the best course of action isn't the cheapest.
Some things to consider:
1. Is there adequate room to accommodate a different engine or would modifications to the cab/chassis be needed?
2. Can the new engine be mated to the existing transmission without needing modifications?
3. Will modifications to the electrical/computer systems be necessary in order to monitor the new engine's diagnostics?
4. How long will it take to perform all work necessary for the engine swap?
5. What impact will the engine swap have on apparatus availability while the work is being completed?
6. Will the engine swap definitively solve the problem for sure?
7. What if they run into unforeseen issues while performing the work that adds to the cost?
8. What if they do a couple engine swaps and aren't happy with the results? What then?
9. How much money can they get for them?
So, depending on the answers, there may be less short/long term headaches with biting the bullet and replacing them even if it would cost more.
Quote:Sometimes the best course of action isn't the cheapest.
Some things to consider:
1. Is there adequate room to accommodate a different engine or would modifications to the cab/chassis be needed?
2. Can the new engine be mated to the existing transmission without needing modifications?
3. Will modifications to the electrical/computer systems be necessary in order to monitor the new engine's diagnostics?
4. How long will it take to perform all work necessary for the engine swap?
5. What impact will the engine swap have on apparatus availability while the work is being completed?
6. Will the engine swap definitively solve the problem for sure?
7. What if they run into unforeseen issues while performing the work that adds to the cost?
8. What if they do a couple engine swaps and aren't happy with the results? What then?
9. How much money can they get for them?
So, depending on the answers, there may be less short/long term headaches with biting the bullet and replacing them even if it would cost more.
So If they sold them the new buyer would have to deal with the same issues. Which means they new buyer must get them cheap enough to fix them. I must say it seems like a new motor is alot cheaper than a new rig. Seems like they will do anything to get the new and latest and greatest carrot.
So If they sold them the new buyer would have to deal with the same issues. Which means they new buyer must get them cheap enough to fix them. I must say it seems like a new motor is alot cheaper than a new rig. Seems like they will do anything to get the new and latest and greatest carrot.
I can't speak for Boston, but from my experience, whenever the floor has lost confidence in a vehicle/manufacturer it's a recipe for anger and resentment and a PR nightmare (example if next time one of the involved trucks breaks down/doesn't make a fire and it becomes headline news)
I find it refreshing when a city/chief listens to the floor and studies its breakdown history and makes a hard decision to start over. In the days of multimillion dollar lawsuits when a fire go wrong, tossing these bunch of rigs might actually be cheaper.....
I don't think its about the latest and greatest carrot but an interesting debate....
So If they sold them the new buyer would have to deal with the same issues. Which means they new buyer must get them cheap enough to fix them. I must say it seems like a new motor is alot cheaper than a new rig. Seems like they will do anything to get the new and latest and greatest carrot.
I think you have it backwards. The previous administration went for the, as you call it, "latest & greatest carrot". Our current administration, a Commissioner who came up through the ranks & worked alongside many of us in the field, actually LISTENED to what the folks in the trenches had to say & we went BACK to what worked for us. From 1984 until 2011 we were strongly associated with E\-One, purchasing in the neighborhood of 90 pieces from them over that period of time will lead to that sort of association. So how can you say we're doing "anything to get the new and latest and greatest carrot" when we're in fact reverting back to what worked well for us for over 25 years?
FF Sean 'Skip' Olson
Boston Fire, Ladder 14
In Memory:
FR David A. Middleton E51, LODD, Box 5247, 05/28/07
FR Paul J. Cahill E30 & FR Warren J. Payne L25, LODD, Box 4-281, 08/29/07
FLT Kevin Kelley L26, LODD, 01/09/09
FLT Edward J. Walsh E33 & FR Michael Kennedy L15, LODD, Box 9-1579, 03/26/14.
My reply had nothing to do with administration. It has to do with the tax payer that all administrations work for. I do not live in Boston but if my department wanted to buy all new trucks to replace less than 5 year old trucks because of bad motors I would not approve. To sell a $800,000.00 ladder 5 years old or less for $400,000.00 because you don't want to put in a $50,000.00 motor is not good money sense. I get you like how it was and want to get back to that with all purchases from this point forward, but to do a dis service to the tax payers is not warranted.
Also I get Boston likes E\-One but im still confused as to why the KME and others dont work if you have posted it i missed it but when they say they dont work for us id like to know how.
What does Boston hope to get with the class action law suite. If they win Navistar may just have to replace all the motors. But I dont think they will have to pay Boston the purchase price of the trucks. After all Boston had a choice in motors and they choose poorly.
Im glad that Boston has an administration that wants to work with the guys and get them what they need and want. If a KME breaks and it makes headline news its KME problem but also thats why you dont always buy low bidder. If you want low price thats what you get Id rather pay a little more and get a quality truck. My department was an all Pierce fleet and i bet it will be a cold day in hell before we ever get another Pierce. When a manufacture builds junk and wont stand behind the product we went esle where with our $$.
Quote:My reply had nothing to do with administration. It has to do with the tax payer that all administrations work for. I do not live in Boston but if my department wanted to buy all new trucks to replace less than 5 year old trucks because of bad motors I would not approve. To sell a $800,000.00 ladder 5 years old or less for $400,000.00 because you don't want to put in a $50,000.00 motor is not good money sense. I get you like how it was and want to get back to that with all purchases from this point forward, but to do a dis service to the tax payers is not warranted.
Also I get Boston likes E-one but im still confused as to why the KME and others dont work if you have posted it i missed it but when they say they dont work for us id like to know how.
What does Boston hope to get with the class action law suite. If they win Navistar may just have to replace all the motors. But I dont think they will have to pay Boston the purchase price of the trucks. After all Boston had a choice in motors and they choose poorly.
Im glad that Boston has an administration that wants to work with the guys and get them what they need and want. If a KME breaks and it makes headline news its KME problem but also thats why you dont always buy low bidder. If you want low price thats what you get Id rather pay a little more and get a quality truck. My department was an all pierce fleet and i bet it will be a cold day in hell before we ever get another pierce. When a manufacture builds junk and wont stand behind the product we went esle where with our $$.
$50,000 won't touch it even if they wanted to replace them. It isn't just pot it out and stick a new one in. You have to consider the other items that he mentioned in the list above. Including bolt patterns not matching up to mount the engines. Not sure how the weight compares to the Cummins engines but will there be enough extra rating to meet nfpa with a new engine? How do the newest EPA changes effect the area to mount the engine underneath the cab as it currently is built. The new engines we just received have just enough clearance for the motors specified. Now if the lawsuit is successful, how much will Boston get out of it? Hopefully enough to cover the added expense. Also, I know KME was pushing the International engines, similar to ALF pushing Caterpillars in 2007 due to the emissions that were coming. My previous department has had a ton of issues with the Caterpillars and ALF but they have (3) 2007 aerials in reserve now and only 5 frontline aerials. They had to replace the units to ensure reliability and public safety. The units were not specced with Caterpillars. it is what was bid and met the spec since we didn't have a standardized fleet of anything at the time and some dump trucks had Caterpillars that were good trucks.
Quote:So If they sold them the new buyer would have to deal with the same issues. Which means they new buyer must get them cheap enough to fix them. I must say it seems like a new motor is alot cheaper than a new rig. Seems like they will do anything to get the new and latest and greatest carrot.
I guess you missed the part where I stated that sometimes the best option isn't the cheapest option.
As I stated, there are a number of things to consider that could significantly impact the ability to and/or cost to replace the motors. So, without that information, it's hard to argue Boston's decision is not financially responsible.
Cost isn't the only factor to consider in this situation in order to determine the best course of action.
Another thing to consider, as was stated in the article, “They make up about 35 percent of our fleet and they’re taking up about 80 percent of our service and maintenance time,” Commissioner Joe Finn said. How do you put a price tag on or quantify that? Companies are left using spare apparatus that is sometimes close to 20 years old & is long past its useful life; Motor Squad is forced to deal with the aforementioned issues, meaning that preventative maintenance & other things get pushed to the back burner, which in turn leads to possible problems down the road. As FireMedic049 said, you can't just take one engine out & put a different one in.
FF Sean 'Skip' Olson
Boston Fire, Ladder 14
In Memory:
FR David A. Middleton E51, LODD, Box 5247, 05/28/07
FR Paul J. Cahill E30 & FR Warren J. Payne L25, LODD, Box 4-281, 08/29/07
FLT Kevin Kelley L26, LODD, 01/09/09
FLT Edward J. Walsh E33 & FR Michael Kennedy L15, LODD, Box 9-1579, 03/26/14.
Quote:How is Tower Ladder 10 doing? I did some training with one of the Lt's from TL10 a couple months ago and he seemed pleased with it when we spoke.
It's in service pretty regularly, I haven't heard of any issues with it from either a mechanical standpoint or from the company members.
FF Sean 'Skip' Olson
Boston Fire, Ladder 14
In Memory:
FR David A. Middleton E51, LODD, Box 5247, 05/28/07
FR Paul J. Cahill E30 & FR Warren J. Payne L25, LODD, Box 4-281, 08/29/07
FLT Kevin Kelley L26, LODD, 01/09/09
FLT Edward J. Walsh E33 & FR Michael Kennedy L15, LODD, Box 9-1579, 03/26/14.
Quote:$50,000 won't touch it even if they wanted to replace them. It isn't just pot it out and stick a new one in. You have to consider the other items that he mentioned in the list above. Including bolt patterns not matching up to mount the engines. Not sure how the weight compares to the Cummins engines but will there be enough extra rating to meet nfpa with a new engine? How do the newest EPA changes effect the area to mount the engine underneath the cab as it currently is built. The new engines we just received have just enough clearance for the motors specified. Now if the lawsuit is successful, how much will Boston get out of it? Hopefully enough to cover the added expense. Also, I know KME was pushing the International engines, similar to ALF pushing Caterpillars in 2007 due to the emissions that were coming. My previous department has had a ton of issues with the Caterpillars and ALF but they have (3) 2007 aerials in reserve now and only 5 frontline aerials. They had to replace the units to ensure reliability and public safety. The units were not specced with Caterpillars. it is what was bid and met the spec since we didn't have a standardized fleet of anything at the time and some dump trucks had Caterpillars that were good trucks.
So a new Cummins engine is over $50,000.00 ??? I would question the pricing on that. I am not sure is its an engine problem why everyone is blaming KME. Personally I don't live in Boston or care what they decide to do, they are the ones who have to explain it. But I am still not sure buying a whole new engine over just replacing the defective engines is a cheaper option.
Quote:So a new Cummins engine is over $50,000.00 ??? I would question the pricing on that. That's not exactly what he said. If you take the first couple sentences together, the implication is that the $50K (or more) mentioned is not solely the price of the engine itself, but also the labor cost to do the work and the cost of any modifications necessary to make the swap.
I am not sure is its an engine problem why everyone is blaming KME. Well, some of it likely due to pre-existing bias towards KME in general, but I thought I read somewhere that KME may have had influence on the decision to select that engine vs another like Cummins.
Personally I don't live in Boston or care what they decide to do, they are the ones who have to explain it. But I am still not sure buying a whole new engine over just replacing the defective engines is a cheaper option. I'm not sure if it's the cheaper option either, but like I already mentioned, the best option to fix a problem isn't necessarily the cheapest option.
Boy there sure are a lot of armchair chiefs on here in the debate of what they think Boston should be doing... Gentleman the issue is Boston Fire's issue and only there's... They know what the problem is and are fixing the problem with what is in there departments best interest... No reason to start flaming them on there decision ...
06-22-2016, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 06-22-2016, 03:59 PM by BFD190.)
Ummm Jim, that's what people do. Particularly on fire sites, more so on apparatus issues. It is what it is. I've seen far worse on apparatus and dept. issues on other sites.
Quote:Boy there sure are a lot of armchair chiefs on here in the debate of what they think Boston should be doing... Gentleman the issue is Boston Fire's issue and only there's... They know what the problem is and are fixing the problem with what is in there departments best interest... No reason to start flaming them on there decision ...
It will be different when EMS takes them over.....
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