Boston Fire Department
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Boston Fire Department
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[quote name='GMACK24' post='23924' date='Aug 18 2006, 10:57 ']Spare Engine 9 1987 E\-One Cyclone.
Responding to a call last week. Amazing this things still in Service.[/quote] The spare pool has extended it's life, plus it's kept out of the elements at Engine 9's station.
Can we please save all of this Pierce vs. EOne ranting and raving for another thread? I'm sick of the speculation and third hand accounts being put forward as acurate information.
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Actually, E\-One was put on the map by Chicago.
What is needed in Boston is a return to tillers. The E-Ones worked OK, but if you ask the old timers on Ladder 1, 24, 4, etc. that had tight fits, they could do much more with the tiller than they ever could with the rear mounts. Now that tillers are available from most manufacturers, they should be looking at them again. Including Pierce, as the biggest problem with the Pierce aerials in Boston, is that they are medium duty in a heavy duty city. If they tried the heavy duty aerials, you might see some opinions change. Please do not construe this to mean that I support the Pierce's in Boston, because I don't. I also don't condone the "well, it's worked for 20+ years, so why mess with it?" theory. A lot has changed in 20 years, and a lot of other options out there could work better. They need to form an objective committee to determine needs and then assess every available option to choose the manufacturer that meets those needs best. 
Can't wait to see Rescue-1's new piece, should be interesting !
-Also, why weren't both Rescues replaced at same time ?
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[quote name='R1SmokeEater' post='24215' date='Aug 19 2006, 10:44 ']Can't wait to see Rescue-1's new piece, should be interesting !
-Also, why weren't both Rescues replaced at same time ?[/quote] Rescue 1 (the current one) was paid for by the Feds as part of the big dig, and is an older model than Rescue 2. They may look alike, but there are a few years between them. Rescue 2 was purchased on an emergency appropriation after the rig sustained frame damage in an MVA in the mid-90's. 
The specualtion here is no different that that of any other topic. Kevin knows first hand from knowing people in the BFD administration. I consider it good FYI type of stuff. The information provided is no different than anything else posted, take it all with a grain of salt.
As for his opinion, and despite that I agree with him, he is entitled to his opinion. Like others on here I really enjoy the photos and conversation this site provides. I know atleast I learn alot about what other departments in other parts of the country are specing and buying in the way of apparatus and the individual members of this site offer that partly by expressing their opinions. To say he can't give his opinion is telling everyone to shut up and only post photos. Like has been said before, if you don't like what is said, don't read it. But everyone should be able to comment. Just my humble opinion and I'm sure I have hurt the fragile sensibilities of some so I apologize in advance.
Larry Di Camillo
Fire Chief Stafford Fire Department www.staffordfirerescue.org Engineer/Operator Houston Fire Department Ladder Co. 68 "A" www.firehouse68.com
It sounds to me that some people that post to these forums, think that if your department is not equipped with Pierces its not a fire department. Some of the problems is not the manufacturer, its NFPA (and the Mfgrs taht sit on the 1900 series comittees) and the codes that they come up with. Poorly written specs and too many bells and whistles. You can't buy a simple rig any more. Way too much electronics that most municpal shops can repair easily. soory about the rant but thats what its coming to.
I agree with you also. Especially with the 1st sentence of your last post.
Larry Di Camillo
Fire Chief Stafford Fire Department www.staffordfirerescue.org Engineer/Operator Houston Fire Department Ladder Co. 68 "A" www.firehouse68.com 
hey all, not to sound like a smartass or nething but from what i've seen of boston it seems like a medium duty aerial would work just fine. but i definatly agree about the jack spreads on the e-ones, far superior. and for a tiller not to be freaking gigantic, you kind of need a medium duty aerial on it, so i hear anyway.
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[quote name='FiremanJoe' post='24387' date='Aug 19 2006, 18:28 ']hey all, not to sound like a smartass or nething but from what i've seen of boston it seems like a medium duty aerial would work just fine. but i definatly agree about the jack spreads on the e-ones, far superior. and for a tiller not to be freaking gigantic, you kind of need a medium duty aerial on it, so i hear anyway.[/quote]
Well, as a person that works for the City of Boston, alongside the Boston firefighters, I have heard their complaints. Boston is famous for their ladder work, and it's not uncommon to have three guys working at the tip of the stick. With the current Pierces, you can see a significant bow with just one guy at the tip, and the height of the siderails raises safety concerns when compared to the E-Ones-another issue that heavy duty aerials would address. As far as the tillers go, one has to look no further than 1 city north, to Somerville to see that a heavy duty aerial on a TDA doesn't have to be huge. I've seen Maxim TDA's, Seagrave TDA's with 4 door cabs, E-Ones with canopy cabs and 4 door cabs, and the Pierces in my 25 years of fire scene photography, and in my opinion, the 1976 Seagrave TDAs were the best aerial that the city had.
Question to those who know. If there are so many safety concerns with the new Pierce Trucks and there are serious problems with them that have been talked about on this board, then why are they still being used? It seems to me its getting blown out of proportion on the board. I have talked to a couple of diffrent fire fighters from Ladder 15 and 18 and a mechanic and they all voiced minor concers.
-John P.
[quote name='edburke' post='24392' date='Aug 19 2006, 19:10 ']As far as the tillers go, one has to look no further than 1 city north, to Somerville to see that a heavy duty aerial on a TDA doesn't have to be huge. I've seen Maxim TDA's, Seagrave TDA's with 4 door cabs, E-Ones with canopy cabs and 4 door cabs, and the Pierces in my 25 years of fire scene photography, and in my opinion, the 1976 Seagrave TDAs were the best aerial that the city had.[/quote]
Does anyone know why TDAs have basicaly disappeared in the metro Boston area? Only Somerville, Revere, and Waltham that i can recall have active duty TDAs. With Cambridge, Quincy and Newton haveing them as spares. 
The answer to your tiller question is also very simple. Money. Boston is about the only place in Massachusetts that has the manpower to make a tiller work. Few other towns operate them, making it work, but tillers require 2 drivers in an era where you might only have 2 guys on a ladder truck. But sorry to say, I HIGHLY doubt youll see Boston return to tillers. Rumor is FDNY is phasing out tillers as well (thats from an FDNY jake so Im not putting stock in that yet). I know what Ed is saying though. They are more manueverable, but in all honesty....not by much these days. Take a look at Reveres L2. Its huge for a tiller.....as are most tillers from most manufacturers. Im willing to bet that those same old time Boston jakes who know tillering would find a way to complain about the size and scope of a "new" tiller. The days of the Maxim or ALF tillers are LONG gone. Newer tillers are at least a third bigger than they were 20-30 years ago.
Would the answer to the Boston woes be tillers? MAYBE at best. But since its probably not going to happen, lets get realistic about it and find something that works. I dont care if its a Pierce, an E\-One, a ALF, a Smeal, a Seagrave or anything else. Just get something that works. They should have learned after all the negative feedback with the original 4 Pierces that they didnt work. But instead went out and bought 2 towers that are even bigger and more useless. They are great trucks if your fighting fires on the hiway, but not so good for Beacon Hill or the North End. I know that Ed doesnt believe in the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" theory, but whats happened over the last 5 years proves its worth to a degree. Boston is going to return to E\-One for ladders unless the commissioner gets hit in the head by a brick between now and inking a contract. He said so in so many words since he cant, by law, outright say it. Why? Because E-Ones work better in Boston that Pierce or anything else. They were designed for cities like Boston who need the 100'+ capabilities on a smaller frame with a short jack spread. Pierce cannot deliver that without shortjacking, which as we should all know, limits your abilities to one sided aerial operation with tip load loss. Why do that when you can buy something that provides you with full operation at all times, on all sides. As Ed mentioned, the job does change. Somethimes you have to change with it, sometimes you dont. In this case, they shouldnt have and its my honest belief that the current leadership has learned that over the last 3 years. And I have to agree to disagree with Ed because the E-Ones DID work great for Boston. The reason they fell apart is a lack of regular replacement. Ladder 7 running a 1988 E\-One until its eventual temp. replacement with L10s old 1990 rig in 2003 and perminant replacement in 2004 is rediculous. 15 years in front line service in Boston or any other big city department is killer on any apparatus. The city went so long without replacing trucks that the old rigs did what old rigs do, break. Then they were relying on spares that were even older!!!!! And they did what a rig of that age does.....break. During the 90's, Boston ran those E-Ones into the ground but they kept running....tired near the end, but still running. There were a few hickups like L2s E\-One blowing at least 2 motors, but as a whole, the E-Ones worked very well. I never intended this to be an E\-One vs Pierce arguement and apologise if thats the way it came off. I answered someones question with fact, not rumor. Ive talked to the guys...just like Ed, and KNOW they dont like the Pierces. And thats not because Pierce doesnt build a great truck. They do, probably better than E\-One, but what works for Revere, Chelsea, Somerville, Cambridge or anywhere else close to Boston that runs Pierce wont work for Boston because Boston is its own city. They have different needs that may call for slightly different apparatus. But I would like to reiderate efin98s sentiments. Lets curb the chat and start posting photos of Bostons great apparatus. These guys take some great photos and I for one enjoy looking at them....even though I can look at them in person whenever I want. If we want to continue the chat, we can either move it to another forum or off-site completely. Im more than willing to chat about this when and where appropriate and hes right, this particular thread isnt the place.
Since I couldnt edit the post to include this, Im going to add this final note that I ommitted from my last post.
Getting a Pierce heavy duty wont solve the handrail issue. The handrails on the fly section of a Pierce HD ladder are less than 2 inches higher than the MD ladder, 15.75" to 17.5" respectively per Pierces website. And you also wouldnt gain anything in width...literally one one-hundreth difference. The HD ladder is still a full 4 inches smaller in hieght and 1 inch smaller in width than the comperable E\-One HP100 and if you went with the CR100, its a difference of 4" in hieght and 3" in width. Just food for thought. 
Do you think the 100' aluminum ladder from Pierce would be an option for Boston? Just food for thought. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/computer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
 ' />
reading about boston switching is same as philly pa they were Seagrave then KME then alf but rumor is they r going back to KME
tom bretz a ffII,retired disabled ff/emt from Kingston PA F D,own 2 wardlafranceengs a 49,a66,member of iaff 840,six cnty fire asso,pa state firemen's assoc, pa pump primers,schuylkill historic fire soc(spaamfaa's newest chapter--black diamond),luzerne cnty fire/rescue,life mem of columbian fire co kingston,former app op at laflin,edwrdsvlle,forty fort all in pa
The Pierce 100' aluminum still utilizes the "H" Style outriggers used on their steel ladders. No savings in space needed or short jacking being required on narrow streets. And their tip load and ratings are for elevations above 40 degrees, despite not saying it on their literature.
Just food for thought.
Larry Di Camillo
Fire Chief Stafford Fire Department www.staffordfirerescue.org Engineer/Operator Houston Fire Department Ladder Co. 68 "A" www.firehouse68.com |
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