The answer to your tiller question is also very simple. Money. Boston is about the only place in Massachusetts that has the manpower to make a tiller work. Few other towns operate them, making it work, but tillers require 2 drivers in an era where you might only have 2 guys on a ladder truck. But sorry to say, I HIGHLY doubt youll see Boston return to tillers. Rumor is FDNY is phasing out tillers as well (thats from an FDNY jake so Im not putting stock in that yet). I know what Ed is saying though. They are more manueverable, but in all honesty....not by much these days. Take a look at Reveres L2. Its huge for a tiller.....as are most tillers from most manufacturers. Im willing to bet that those same old time Boston jakes who know tillering would find a way to complain about the size and scope of a "new" tiller. The days of the Maxim or ALF tillers are LONG gone. Newer tillers are at least a third bigger than they were 20-30 years ago.
Would the answer to the Boston woes be tillers? MAYBE at best. But since its probably not going to happen, lets get realistic about it and find something that works. I dont care if its a Pierce, an E\-One, a ALF, a Smeal, a Seagrave or anything else. Just get something that works. They should have learned after all the negative feedback with the original 4 Pierces that they didnt work. But instead went out and bought 2 towers that are even bigger and more useless. They are great trucks if your fighting fires on the hiway, but not so good for Beacon Hill or the North End. I know that Ed doesnt believe in the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" theory, but whats happened over the last 5 years proves its worth to a degree. Boston is going to return to E\-One for ladders unless the commissioner gets hit in the head by a brick between now and inking a contract. He said so in so many words since he cant, by law, outright say it. Why? Because E-Ones work better in Boston that Pierce or anything else. They were designed for cities like Boston who need the 100'+ capabilities on a smaller frame with a short jack spread. Pierce cannot deliver that without shortjacking, which as we should all know, limits your abilities to one sided aerial operation with tip load loss. Why do that when you can buy something that provides you with full operation at all times, on all sides. As Ed mentioned, the job does change. Somethimes you have to change with it, sometimes you dont. In this case, they shouldnt have and its my honest belief that the current leadership has learned that over the last 3 years.
And I have to agree to disagree with Ed because the E-Ones DID work great for Boston. The reason they fell apart is a lack of regular replacement. Ladder 7 running a 1988 E\-One until its eventual temp. replacement with L10s old 1990 rig in 2003 and perminant replacement in 2004 is rediculous. 15 years in front line service in Boston or any other big city department is killer on any apparatus. The city went so long without replacing trucks that the old rigs did what old rigs do, break. Then they were relying on spares that were even older!!!!! And they did what a rig of that age does.....break. During the 90's, Boston ran those E-Ones into the ground but they kept running....tired near the end, but still running. There were a few hickups like L2s E\-One blowing at least 2 motors, but as a whole, the E-Ones worked very well.
I never intended this to be an E\-One vs Pierce arguement and apologise if thats the way it came off. I answered someones question with fact, not rumor. Ive talked to the guys...just like Ed, and KNOW they dont like the Pierces. And thats not because Pierce doesnt build a great truck. They do, probably better than E\-One, but what works for Revere, Chelsea, Somerville, Cambridge or anywhere else close to Boston that runs Pierce wont work for Boston because Boston is its own city. They have different needs that may call for slightly different apparatus.
But I would like to reiderate efin98s sentiments. Lets curb the chat and start posting photos of Bostons great apparatus. These guys take some great photos and I for one enjoy looking at them....even though I can look at them in person whenever I want. If we want to continue the chat, we can either move it to another forum or off-site completely. Im more than willing to chat about this when and where appropriate and hes right, this particular thread isnt the place.
Would the answer to the Boston woes be tillers? MAYBE at best. But since its probably not going to happen, lets get realistic about it and find something that works. I dont care if its a Pierce, an E\-One, a ALF, a Smeal, a Seagrave or anything else. Just get something that works. They should have learned after all the negative feedback with the original 4 Pierces that they didnt work. But instead went out and bought 2 towers that are even bigger and more useless. They are great trucks if your fighting fires on the hiway, but not so good for Beacon Hill or the North End. I know that Ed doesnt believe in the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" theory, but whats happened over the last 5 years proves its worth to a degree. Boston is going to return to E\-One for ladders unless the commissioner gets hit in the head by a brick between now and inking a contract. He said so in so many words since he cant, by law, outright say it. Why? Because E-Ones work better in Boston that Pierce or anything else. They were designed for cities like Boston who need the 100'+ capabilities on a smaller frame with a short jack spread. Pierce cannot deliver that without shortjacking, which as we should all know, limits your abilities to one sided aerial operation with tip load loss. Why do that when you can buy something that provides you with full operation at all times, on all sides. As Ed mentioned, the job does change. Somethimes you have to change with it, sometimes you dont. In this case, they shouldnt have and its my honest belief that the current leadership has learned that over the last 3 years.
And I have to agree to disagree with Ed because the E-Ones DID work great for Boston. The reason they fell apart is a lack of regular replacement. Ladder 7 running a 1988 E\-One until its eventual temp. replacement with L10s old 1990 rig in 2003 and perminant replacement in 2004 is rediculous. 15 years in front line service in Boston or any other big city department is killer on any apparatus. The city went so long without replacing trucks that the old rigs did what old rigs do, break. Then they were relying on spares that were even older!!!!! And they did what a rig of that age does.....break. During the 90's, Boston ran those E-Ones into the ground but they kept running....tired near the end, but still running. There were a few hickups like L2s E\-One blowing at least 2 motors, but as a whole, the E-Ones worked very well.
I never intended this to be an E\-One vs Pierce arguement and apologise if thats the way it came off. I answered someones question with fact, not rumor. Ive talked to the guys...just like Ed, and KNOW they dont like the Pierces. And thats not because Pierce doesnt build a great truck. They do, probably better than E\-One, but what works for Revere, Chelsea, Somerville, Cambridge or anywhere else close to Boston that runs Pierce wont work for Boston because Boston is its own city. They have different needs that may call for slightly different apparatus.
But I would like to reiderate efin98s sentiments. Lets curb the chat and start posting photos of Bostons great apparatus. These guys take some great photos and I for one enjoy looking at them....even though I can look at them in person whenever I want. If we want to continue the chat, we can either move it to another forum or off-site completely. Im more than willing to chat about this when and where appropriate and hes right, this particular thread isnt the place.
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