St. Louis Metro

[Guest]

I love seeing the old St. Louis County rigs like that! I remember when a few of those were still running in frontline service!



Thanks for sharing! Bring 'em on if you still have more to post!

[Frank B]

Festus MO 75 Towers Ford C

unknown photographer

[Guest]

I wish Towers still built trucks instead of dropping out and selling Luverne, Crimson and now Rosenbauer. There are so many old Tower's units out there still, they were built to last.

[Guest]

You can always tell a Towers rig by their signature side-mount pump panel design, for sure.



If anyone's into collecting 1/87 scale (H.O.) fire apparatus models, Athearn released a late 1960s Ford F-850 Towers pumper a few years ago, which has a front-mount pump on it. It's a nice little model and comes in several different colors. You can even make out the familiar Towers logo plate on the rear of the truck. As far as I know, these models are still available at certain hobby shops or online.

[Guest]

West County Ems & Fire

Medic 3537

2010 Furion/Braun



1/2 delivered. 2 more on order



   

[Guest]

I'm just not feelin' the love for these things. They're too large. When is "enough is enough" when it comes to the size of an ambulance?! Yeah, it's better than a van, like when I started out 25 years ago, but these things are getting out of hand! I remember seeing Cambridge (Mass.) Fire Department's Spartan Metro cab ambulance a few years ago at FDIC and thinking the same thing.



In My Humble Opinon, if you want to go with an ambulance with the large commercial cab, then the Chevy/GMC, International and Freightliner are just fine for that. Why do we need a 4 door "budget custom cab" on an ambulance??!! I realize that they're utilizing the back seats for SCBA storage, but do we REALLY need a Spartan Furion cab just for that?! Another waste of taxpayer's money.



Just my two cents here.

[MFD76]

[quote name='JM82' timestamp='1298239063' post='426252']

I'm just not lovin' these things. They're too large. When is "enough is enough" when it comes to ambulances?! Yeah, it's beter than a van, like when I started out 25 years ago, but these things are getting out of hand! I remember seeing Cambridge (Mass.) Fire Department's Spartan Metro cab ambulance a few years ago at FDIC and thinking the same thing.



In My Humble Opinon, if you want to go with an ambulance with the large commercial cab, then the Chevy/GMC, International and Freightliner are just fine for that. Why do we need a 4 door "custom" cab on an ambulance??? I realize that maybe there is SCBA storage in the back seats, but do we REALLY need a Spartan Furion cab just for that?!



Just my two cents here.

[/quote]



I agree Jeff. Also only Gary, Indiana is allowed to have Blue over Red. West County is not Ghetto enough.

[Guest]

Rick, that's the same way that I feel about black-over-red, being Chicago's "own" color scheme. And now the St. Louis Fire Department is going to it. It's OK for Chicago because that's what makes them unique, but the St. Louis Fire Department??? They should've stayed with solid red for their new rigs. Stick with tradition and not with what's the latest and greatest.



As far as West County's blue-over-red, I'm not crazy about that, either. They used to be solid red until they bought the ALFs and Freightliners 10 or so years ago. It's OK for Gary because, again, that's what makes them unique. Sure, there are a lot of departments and districts with solid red apparatus out there, or white-over-red, or yellow, or lime yellow, white, etc., but tradition has its place, and maybe I'm sounding like an old fart here, but let Chicago keep its black-over-red, Gary keep its blue-over-red, and keep St. Louis solid red.



Just my two cents.

[Guest]

If this was facebook, you would get "liked" for those comments. I like the black over red look for the new H&L's... but that isn't us. We're not gold leafing either. And really??? Backseats for SCBA storage??? Ive seen the older styles MED-TECH and Osage ambulances that had SCBAs mounted on the inside of the main 02 compartment door and maybe even one mounted behind the seat back of the captains seat in the patient compartment.

[fyrfoto]

[quote name='STLFire2494' timestamp='1298309505' post='426428']

If this was facebook, you would get "liked" for those comments. I like the black over red look for the new H&L's... but that isn't us. We're not gold leafing either. And really??? Backseats for SCBA storage??? Ive seen the older styles MED-TECH and Osage ambulances that had SCBAs mounted on the inside of the main 02 compartment door and maybe even one mounted behind the seat back of the captains seat in the patient compartment.

[/quote]





I thought St. Louis greatest appearance asset on the old Pierce and LTI rigs was the gold leafing, particularly the STLFD scramble on the front doors. On a solid red truck I always thought that was one of the classiest city schemes around, especially with the basic lettering on the stick etc. I thought the Smeals always looked a little cheap.



J

[Guest]

I agree 100% about the gold leaf lettering. I realize we're talking about working fire trucks and not "parade rigs" (as Neil referred to Lemay's new Smeal pumper as not being a parade rig. Hence the reason for no gold leaf on 1614), but the gold leaf looks so much better than the white reflective lettering. And I know it comes down to money, but the added spark to the rigs would make them stand out. Same with the new StLFD ambulances.(Got to see some StLFD rigs yesterday afternoon at the house fire at Blendon & Bruno Avenues. Spectacular fire! Best one I've been on in quite awhile!).



It's amazing what a little bit of gold leaf can do! Lemay's new pumper would look 100% better with gold leaf lettering as well. On the other hand, depending upon the graphics package a department chooses, no gold leaf is necessary; like Kirkwood, who's blue/white graphics/striping looks really cool, at least to me.



And as far as Pattonville's and West County's Braun/Spartan ambulances, believe me, there's plenty of exterior compartment space for those SCBAs. We have a compartment on 1817 for 2 SCBAs plus 2 spare bottles and a few tools and there's still PLENTY of compartment space all around for other EMS equipment.

[MFD76]

[quote name='JM82' timestamp='1298311744' post='426435']

I agree 100% about the gold leaf lettering. I realize we're talking about working fire trucks and not "parade rigs" (as Neil referred to Lemay's new Smeal pumper as not being a parade rig. Hence the reason for no goldleaf on 1614), but the gold leaf looks so much better than the white reflective lettering. And I know it comes down to money, but the added spark to the rigs would make them stand out. Same with the new StLFD ambulances.(Got to see some StLFD rigs yesterday afternoon at the house fire at Blendon & Bruno Avenues. Spectacular fire! Best one I've been on in quite awhile!).



It's amazing what a little bit of gold leaf can do! Lemay's new pumper would look 100% better with gold leaf lettering as well. On the other hand, depending upon the graphics package a department chooses, no gold leaf is necessary; like Kirkwood, who's blue/white graphics/striping looks really cool, at least to me.



And as far as Pattonville's and West County's Braun/Spartan ambulances, believe me, there's plenty of exterior compartment space for those SCBAs. We have a compartment on 1817 for 2 SCBAs plus 2 spare bottles and a few tools and there's still PLENTY of compartment space all around for other EMS equipment.

[/quote]



Funny thing is gold leaf now days is the same price at Scotch Light. At least with our new Pierce it is that way.



StLFD like KCFD traditionally had solid RED rigs. I was very disappointed in 1990 when KCFD went white over red instead of solid red. I was super happy they dropped the nasty white over lime green. But the 1972 ALF's were last rigs delivered Solid Red so in my mind in 1990 the repainted rigs should have been solid red. In 2005 they returned to solid red, I like it much better. We made the choice on our new Engine at MFD to return to our tradition of solid red from white over red. We even got our MARS light back.



Rick

[Guest]

I can recant my comment about the gold leafing. I'm sure the Pierce/LTI's looked much better in their first decade of service. Now they are going on 20+ years, and more or less have yellow streaks on the doors. But it fades with time, accidents and even bullet holes and also when the trucks get washed/brushed; practically rubbing the paint off. I grew up in firehouses with gold leafing trim and lettering and it looked really sharp.



Im glad my ambulance isnt gold leafed. The new LED lighting gives us good pop.



Its all about the other colors of the truck.

[ben_mazanec]

[quote name='fyrfoto' timestamp='1298309794' post='426429']

I thought St. Louis greatest appearance asset on the old Pierce and LTI rigs was the gold leafing, particularly the STLFD scramble on the front doors. On a solid red truck I always thought that was one of the classiest city schemes around, especially with the basic lettering on the stick etc. I thought the Smeals always looked a little cheap.



J

[/quote]



How's this for gold leafing! This is when the Spartan/Salisburys were new!

[ben_mazanec]

The old Sutphen in Yellow as H&L 8. and the 36's old Howe Defender/Grumman Pumping at the fire engine rally. this is all i got for now. i have a fire to post but i just moved into a house and getting settled in! Stay Safe!

[Guest]

Those Squads looked great when brand new! I recall that originally they talked about putting rescue cranes on the top of them. And the Fire Engine Rally held at the Jefferson Memorial and the crowds it drew....I miss those days. I liked it much better when it was held there. I remember when the Sutphen ladder truck was yellow and it was H&L 8. The good 'ol days, the pre-"Quint Concept" days, of the Howe and Mack R pumpers, Seagrave ladder trucks, Mack CF Squads, and Battalion Chiefs running in station wagons with B&M sirens on the roofs next to the double gumball lights; when Hwy. 40 was the dividing line for Squads 1 and 2, being north and south instead of east and west. I liked it better that way. I'm starting to ramble like an old codger.

[Guest]

[quote name='JM82' timestamp='1298239063' post='426252']

I'm just not feelin' the love for these things. They're too large. When is "enough is enough" when it comes to the size of an ambulance?! Yeah, it's better than a van, like when I started out 25 years ago, but these things are getting out of hand! I remember seeing Cambridge (Mass.) Fire Department's Spartan Metro cab ambulance a few years ago at FDIC and thinking the same thing.



In My Humble Opinon, if you want to go with an ambulance with the large commercial cab, then the Chevy/GMC, International and Freightliner are just fine for that. Why do we need a 4 door "budget custom cab" on an ambulance??!! I realize that they're utilizing the back seats for SCBA storage, but do we REALLY need a Spartan Furion cab just for that?! Another waste of taxpayer's money.



Just my two cents here.

[/quote]



I guess it all comes down to each department's needs.



#1:Response area would be my main concern. Neighborhoods built before the 60's, forget this truck. Strike one! (It's just to big for that tight of a development, as is every medium duty chassis. I mean width wise not turning radius, which this thing kills no matter what chassis it goes against.)



#2:What am I going to carry on it. Plan Jane ambulance, or ambulance, rescue, command? Plan Jane ambulance that's strike two.



#3:What kind of budget do I have? $225,000.00 or more, no so that's strike three. It's out of consideration.



Now with that said, lets look at it from the other side.



#1:Response area would be my main concern. Neighborhoods built after the 60's, take first base.



#2:What am I going to carry on it. Plan Jane ambulance, or ambulance, rescue, command? All the above or two of the above, take second base.



#3:What kind of budget do I have? $225,000.00 or more, or department will lease it for 10 years, take third big boy.



#4:OK, so now am I considering refurbishing it in 5-10 years? (Re-man the body and replace components, refurb chassis rebuild motor & trans) Well you've just hit a HOME RUN!



Consider this as well, I just sold a unit with a Freightliner M2 chassis. In 5 years that chassis will be thrown out and replaced for a cost if it were today of $67,000.00. Your looking at a chassis cost in 5 years of $80,400.00, assuming a 4% per year price increase.



You can get a factory re-manufactured Detroit Diesel & Allison for about $25,000.00. If you do that you will only end spending about $10,000.00 more for this chassis over the two life times of it, compared to a commercial chassis five year lifetime. That's also assuming you go to the extreme of a complete chassis motor transmission replacement. If you just refurb the engine and tranny you would actually save money.



Then again many look at medium duty ambulance chassis replacement at 150,000 to 200,000 miles, those same people look at custom chassis apparatus at 300,000 miles. So if you decide to do that you can equal the savings out just by the amount of time you keep it before replacement. If you get twice the use out of the chassis, you are easily saving money.



All of this does not take into account that most dealers can work on a Spartan chassis, where as if you have a Freightliner, Kenworth, International, Ford, or Chevy, your dealer more than likely can not touch it!



While this chassis is not for everyone, there are many who can make a convincing argument for it.



Oh Yeah BTW: Who was first with Blue over Red Montreal, Quebec, Canada or Gary, IN?



Kris

[Guest]

Money's no object for the 2 fire districts that currently operate these rigs in St. Louis County. Their response areas aren't a problem, not like in an urban setting.



Your information is something to consider, but I still feel that the Furion cab is a little bit of overkill in this matter.

[fyrfoto]

[quote name='Ben' timestamp='1298357432' post='426524']

How's this for gold leafing! This is when the Spartan/Salisburys were new!

[/quote]



Very Classy! These trucks were beautiful, then again I love the old howe trucks as well. I loved hearing "engine -- responding with a howe" Didn't someone once print a shirt with their LTI up on blocks as a joke?



J

[MFD76]

[quote name='STLFire2494' timestamp='1298345809' post='426511']

I can recant my comment about the gold leafing. I'm sure the Pierce/LTI's looked much better in their first decade of service. Now they are going on 20+ years, and more or less have yellow streaks on the doors. But it fades with time, accidents and even bullet holes and also when the trucks get washed/brushed; practically rubbing the paint off. I grew up in firehouses with gold leafing trim and lettering and it looked really sharp.



Im glad my ambulance isnt gold leafed. The new LED lighting gives us good pop.



Its all about the other colors of the truck.

[/quote]



When I came on almost fifteen years ago. Both our Pierce Arrows still had gold leaf, being the odd one out. Actually loving the job, I was reading the owners manual one night. I ran across the paint and gold leaf warranty. It said once a year in order to maintain the gold leaf integrity you must coat the gold leaf in clear lacquer, if not the above mentioned happens it chips and peals. Now back then our rigs shined, washed twice a day you could eat off the dog house. It was obvious the doors had not been taken care of and the gold leaf was chipping and faded. So in short time the doors were wet sanded and decal applied with reflective strip.



The new gold leaf most mfg's use is a gold leaf on adhesive back with shading. They apply the gold leaf and then place a clear vinyl Mylar over the top to protect it. It is very durable now, actually might be more durable than the fancy Scotch Light that has color or outline ink printed on top. The new Scotch Light with inks tends to fade with UV light over time.



Just my thoughts,

Rick