FDNY Rigs Ordered Out of Service

[ACPD227]

http://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com/art...gust212013

 

 

Wow Im all for nice apparatus but to say if its over 10 years old its bad as a blanket policy. I knew this was the policy for front line rigs (Engines, Ladders, Rescues) but all front line rigs. This is part of the reason why the cost of living is so high on the east coast. 

[Roto-Ray]

The COL in VA is probably half to a quarter of what it is in NYC and surrounding suburbs. That being said, the 10-year rule for FDNY rigs has been in effect for white sine time. Those rigs take a beating after a decade on NYC streets.

[ACPD227]

I go on vacation every October to NYC and you are correct they are beaten. The way I read this though Foam units, Mask svc, Collapse, Hazmat, and Other now have to be replaced every 10 years. I as a Firefighter want nothing but the best but also me as a tax payer want the stuff taken care of and replaced when needed not because its 10 yeas old. I would agree 10 years seems spot on for engines and ladders, rescues. My personal car it drive is 13 and I dont get rid of it because it 13 ill get rid of it when it becomes unreliable.     

[Juice]

Uhh, what about spares? Once a rig enters spare service it's exactly 10 years old, so how is THAT going to work?

[e290l103]

union has it in their contract that at 10 years 364 days all first line rigs must be replaced.  lots of uninformed opinions floating around the internet, but that is what it is.  it has been in the contract for years.  now the union has won their case. the reason it is in there is simple.  if it wasnt it would be 1990 all over again and rigs would be out of service broken down every day just as they were during the red square days, because the city bean counters could give a crap less what the members were riding in.  I really gotta love some of the comments made on the facebook boards by people that have no idea whatsover what a NYC street is like and the absolute pounding that these trucks take on a daily basis.   comments such as "our rig is over 10 years old and still runs and pumps great."    yeah, it does because it does two hundred runs a year, zero fire duty on smooth streets.  you cannot compare anywhere to New York City.  ever.

[ACPD227]

Mike thanks for the info.

[Marc]

Mike said it all............ALOT of misinformed people out there............

[Guest]

Those trucks take more of a beating in 1 week than most trucks take in a year.

[TacSupport1]

Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore, etc are some other cities that are absolutely brutal on apparatus. Sadly, they aren't lucky enough to have such a strong clause(s) in their contracts as FDNY.  

 

It's not a get a new rig thing, it's not even a reliability thing, it's a firefighter life safety thing.

[senatobiafire704]

I did an EFO paper on appartus replacement a year ago. A 10 year replacement cycle is not that out of the "norm" now for many departments. Much of my research showed that a majority of departments are placing their rigs out of front line service between 7 and 15 years of service. Keep in mind, the departments that I surveyed were way smaller than FDNY, ran a significant amount of fewer calls and operated in much better conditions (weather, roads, traffic, etc.) than FDNY. Kudos to the union for bringing this to light and keeping the members' safety first and foremost. You are right, the bean counters will certainly delay purchasing any new rigs or anything else for that matter until it is basically way past the usable life. From what I learned in my paper, it is drastically cheaper on the tax payers in the long run to rotate these pieces of equipment out of frontline service quicker.

[Juice]

I know that it's not uncommon of departments to replace a front line rig after 10 years, or at least not a new concept, I don't understand what they'll do for reserves though, that will put a truck older than 10 years still on the roads.

 

Trav!

[Guest]

Spares and reserve apparatus are not included from what I've been told.

[ACPD227]

This whole law suit I think was about other front line trucks that were over 10 years old. Foam trucks, Hat mat, thawing units, Rac units. They are all front line still but were over 10 years old. I think they were dragging their feet on ordering several years engines, and ladders also. I don't think reserve rigs were ever the concern. 

[FireMedic049]

In addition to any "dragging of the feet" that might have been going on, there's also the issue of switching manufacturers with the latest engine bid award.  From what I've heard, KME is behind schedule with the FDNY prototype.  If Seagrave is done putting out engines on the previous award, that would likely create a "gap" in the replacements of engines.  I know that FDNY recently awarded an "emergency purchase" or something of that nature to Seagrave for I think 6 engines to replace units lost in Hurricane Sandy because KME wouldn't be able to deliver units for a while yet.

[ACPD227]

I dont think Seagrave wants the work I know Seagrave wont do the 5 year warranty FDNY wants so thets why KME got it.I know given the choice Id take Seagrave but with the warranty demands they dont make any $$.

[e290l103]

incorrect...

[ACPD227]

Ok ill bite it seems to me that over the last several bids it was seagraves to loose. I was always told Seagrave didnt want to do the 5 year warranty any more they broke even on the bid or lost money. My source might have been wrong but thats what i was told.

[FireMedic049]

Ok ill bite it seems to me that over the last several bids it was seagraves to loose. I was always told seagrave didnt want to do the 5 year warranty any more they broke even on the bid or lost money. My source might have been wrong but thats what i was told.

Your source was mistaken.  The warranty wasn't the deal breaker on the latest engine bidding.  KME was the lowest bid by a sizable margin over Ferrara and even more so over Seagrave.  That's why KME was awarded the work.

 

I can't say what Seagrave's position is regarding the FDNY work, but IMO there's pretty much two ways to look at the recent engine bids when you have a price difference of a couple hundred thousand dollars per unit from high to low bid.  1) Seagrave knows how much they need per unit to not lose their shirts on it and the other bidders are underestimating the cost of the warranty work or 2) Seagrave doesn't want the work and is trying to not get the bid.

[KENTucky]

Well...unless someone can prove otherwise, by my count, Seagrave will deliver less than 30 rigs this year to non-FDNY departments...and delivery is still running at about one full year.  I honestly don't know how much longer they'll last.  Louisville seems to be the last 100% loyal repeat customer.  We've bought nothing but Seagrave pumpers and ladders since 1987. 

 

Speaking about replacing rigs...compare the demographics.  FDNY runs rigs into the ground in 10 years...they replace out of necessity.  LA City and County still see plenty of fire duty, but the environment is completely different...and they are still running around in 20+ year old canopy cab rigs.  You've got sprawling suburban departments replacing entire fleets every 5 to 10 years, with comparatively low run volume, little fire duty, and they're still in meticulous condition.  You've got the tiny volunteer fire companies in the Northeast that make 100 to 500 runs a year and they replace their rigs every 5 to 10 years, like clockwork, just because.  They have more parade miles than actual service miles.  Then, you've got the Detroits of the country...although you can't even compare them to anyone in all fairness.  Heck, even in Louisville, we have frontline companies that are 20+ years old, make 1500 runs a year, and have between 100,000 and 200,000 miles on them.  Our shop is good, almost to a fault.  They keep our rigs running and safe...and they last forever.  But, eventually, you have to replace them...and that isn't happening enough around here.   

 

Kent Parrish

Louisville, KY 

[Guest]

Don't want to run this into a "Seagrave is in Trouble" thread - but - at the NJ Fireman's Convention this year, Seagrave had only 3 rigs on display - 2 FDNY and 1 from Pocono Twp. PA.  If I am not mistaken, Seagrave only has three rigs being delivered/built in NJ this year nor has it had a stable dealer here in NJ for some time now.