Philadelphia, PA

[firescooby]

I take that back and say 3 MFGs. Now this is based off of the research my department did, the region we are in, the area we serve, our department's ability to maintain apparatus, dealer support in the region, and the understanding of all aspects of fire apparatus. It could be a books worth of info that is not needed in the Philly thread. Plus everyone else's opinions or lessons based on their experience. Again every MFG has made a lemon(s), not one is perfect, and pricing driving many decisions these days all factors in to what kind of rig you will end up with.

What MFG's are you thinking of? I know it's just an opinion, but I'd like to know.

[KDWMAEMT]

Saw a couple photos today of an E\-One Bronto Skylift being demo'd for PFD. I guess they had a Rosenbauer T-Rex in a while back being demo'd as well. Looks like theyre looking for viable replacements for the Snorkels

[drfeelgood]

What MFG's are you thinking of? I know it's just an opinion, but I'd like to know.

Well I will say Seagrave, EOne, and Smeal on a S chassis. Again the price range is quite the spread with these 3 with two being close in price and 1 a bit more but we based things on a lot of factors. All 3 have the strongest cabs in the industry, all were receptive to some of the requirements we had which some of the big names in the biz refused, two of them have the majority of replacement parts off the shelf from a heavy truck supplier, all 3 have service constraints by distance or on location staff but willing to train/certify our shop with repairs, parts purchasing, and warranty work. All were open to allow us to talk to their engineers to discuss changes, improvements, or options. 2 have been at the top of the fire apparatus world and humbled by their fall which has lead to them bringing back quality control. All 3 offer off the shelf multiplex systems that have been proven in the the military, heavy equipment, and fire service which they are easy to get parts and service for. So on and so on.


IMO Pierce is a cog in the Oshkosh machine where profit trumps quality. We have owned 9 of them and beat them to death but outside of TAK 4 and commandzone issues we would still buy them if they still built the models we have with the quality they were built with. Then there's the dealer who is not as responsive to the little guy vs. the bigger fish in our area.


E\-One which we owned in the 80's and 90's and again beat them to death but they held up. All of the ones we disposed of are still in service with thier 2nd to 4th departments. Our experience over the years with known eone problems were electrical, paint corrosion, cracking body mounts, pump manifolds rusting out, and lots of vinyl/plastic cab interiors. Take a stainless body, Vmux electrical system, stainless plumbing, and they are willing to give you a mostly metal cab interior so if speced right you can address known issues with that brand. A county not to far away from us have created this new and tougher eone design which so far has been successful at a reasonable cost. Plus they have a responsive dealer to help solve problems. Now we still own a 27 year old eone ladder which is used as a countywide reserve that pretty much is on the road 46/48 weeks a year for the last 5 years that has been holding well because it's simple to maintain and operate.


Smeal is not very popular in the area but more and more are popping up. They have an agreesive dealer now so that has helped sales. Most of those that have or owned Smeals that I have talk to have had more chassis issues than body and pump. Now the S chassis provides an option instead of a Spartan although its built by Ferrera its actually a nice durable cab. Smeal also has two very well known aerial lines.


Seagrave has been very "Unicorn" like in the area for quire a long time but again an aggressive dealer has made things happen. They can be difficult to deal with and fear change but I think many will agree they build a simple and tough as a tank vehicles. Of course their pricing chase many away but as the regional sales rep told me "how many 10 year old Seagraves do you see on the market compared to other brands?" True to a point because most just run them forever.


Well that's it for now and yes not one mfg builds the perfect fire truck but some do try.

[KENTucky]

Seagrave isn't for everyone.  It is true they've never been at the forefront of innovation and generally offer a relatively standard product line.  They do not have an extended dealer market...they have just a few strong areas that they market...and they are not cheap.  For those reasons, I think they've conceded to being a high end, low volume builder.  Its my opinion that losing FDNY business actually helped them....they've rebuilt relationships with the smaller customers and no longer have all their eggs in one basket....a basket that is too demanding.     

 

Seagrave is all I've ever driven and operated...going back to 1992.  My area has nearly 100 Seagrave apparatus currently on the streets.  I believe we have the second highest concentration of Seagrave apparatus, behind the FDNY.  We've essentially had the same salesman since 1987 and they last forever....two big keys in fire apparatus - dealer relationship and durability.  Louisville is about to replace a 1994 Seagrave 100' quint...22 years old and making 1200 runs a year with no problem.  We also have a 1992 TeleSqurt still in frontline service...with no replacement in the pipeline.  It kills me when I see departments replacing 5-10 year old apparatus (often because the newly elected Chief wasn't a fan of the previous "name") and others who justify replacement based off their "mean streets."  We've got "mean streets," crappy roads, every weather cycle in the universe, and daily fires as well...but we have an excellent shop and preventative maintenance program.  20-25 year replacement is now the norm for us.  Imagine that...taking "care" of a rig will make it last longer?  We ran Mack and Pirsch apparatus forever, as well...you couldn't kill them.   

 

Seagrave even had their issues for a while, evidence that everyone does.  Back in the early 2000s, the "strike" rigs were complete lemons.  Labor issues will cause that...just like replacement refs in the NFL.  I do enjoy hearing feedback on other manufacturers while out photographing rigs.  I won't knock the other guys...but will say that E\-One has made a remarkable comeback....and there are SOME manufacturers taking entirely too long to deliver complete junk.        

 

In the end and from my experience, a simple well-constructed rig with strong dealer support should last you forever.  It should be no surprise that the more crap you put on a rig, the more engineering involved, the more gimmicky innovations you add...the more troubles you will have. 

 

Kent Parrish

Louisville, KY 

[ff168577]

Philly had 5 tillers on order with KME, 2 were delivered, but I've been told the remaining order have been cancelled. The cab are to wide, and the crews are having issues navigating through the city. They are looking to order 8 engines and 7 ladders, 10 medic units next year.

[cml0774]

4 tillers have been delivered and are in service more are still on order. The complaints are about the flat roof not the cab width. The ones on order have been modified; they will have raised roofs and the last compartment on either side of the trailer have been eliminated for better maneuverability. The KMEs are 7inches shorter than the ALFs.

[ff168577]

I was showed an email stating the remaining order was cancelled.

[cml0774]

4 tdas still on order

[chief60]

Any info on the Philly tillers? They put out a new bid for "compact aerial" design. It is a tiller but obviously there are some issues with the KME design they are receiving.

[cml0774]

The new spec calls for a narrower cab and body to fit in some of the older firehouses that have clearance issues. There's clearance issues with some of the older ALF tillers with theses houses. The PFD has 7more tillers on order from KME with the current design; I'm sure KME will put a compact design together.

[chief60]

Thanks, I was wondering. I knew they made a few changes to the KME tillers and ordered more. I was surprised to see the bid back out again instead of a few more changes to the current spec.