FDIC 2017

[ACPD227]

I was at the Spartan dealer last week and looked at a Spartan tower ladder demo. The sales rep said that all new spartan / smeal ladders will have smeal ladders on them. 

[5thalarmphotography]

i just booked my tickets to fdic so i cant wate this is the first time in 6 years i will be there

[Will]

Alexis will have a heavy rescue being build for Andalusia, IL and Smeal will have a midmount platform built for Council Bluffs, IA. You can see how the Andalusia truck is coming along under the " In Progress" section on Alexis's website.

[willman940]

 

As far as the ladder itself, the biggest difference is the use of 100k psi steel vs. 80k psi in the normal ladders.  (Smeal aerials have been built this way for some time, and the tip loads reflect the difference).  Higher yield strength steel theoretically means you need less mass to achieve the same strength in an assembled ladder.  Since the ladder is lighter there are other advantages in the torque box design and stabilizers.  Remember though, it's all physics and there is no magic or cheating when it comes to weight and stability.  So don't be shocked when there are positions you can put an ascendant into that will be limited or not permitted by the software on the rig.  Personally, I'd want 4 outriggers and the 100k psi steel aerial, all parked on a set of tandems.  (Disclaimer:  I sell Smeal)  I wouldn't be surprised if pierce starts building the ascendant ladder on the traditional 4 outrigger torque box (or a variation of it) on a tandem axle chassis.

THIS GUY RIGHT HERE! As a member of an organization who just ordered an ascendant, I really tried to hammer this home. The powers that be had other ideas.

[willman940]

I was at the Spartan dealer last week and looked at a Spartan tower ladder demo. The sales rep said that all new spartan / smeal ladders will have smeal ladders on them. 

So they're dropping the current Spartan line?

 

That's disappointing, having experience working off of one, although the rig had it's problems, very few had anything to do with the aerial itself. I thought it was pretty nice.

[Juice]

What are the odds that Ferrara is bringing the Ashburn tiller?

[npfd801]

So they're dropping the current Spartan line?

 

That's disappointing, having experience working off of one, although the rig had it's problems, very few had anything to do with the aerial itself. I thought it was pretty nice.

 

I had heard this rumor too, that all Spartan/Smeal products would wear all Smeal aerials.  I took that LTC would be left to rot as well.  

 

Here's my take.  Smeal got in trouble over extending themselves to begin with, and couldn't keep up with the increased demand of so many orders from so many new dealers.  Part of that problem is having enough skilled labor making the stuff you build.  How in the hell is Smeal going to continue to draw skilled labor in the middle of nowhere, with a now even higher demand for skilled laborers to build these aerials?  Hopefully they use more than one plant to build the Smeal design...  They should keep LTC as well, in my opinion.  This coming from a department that runs a Smeal ladder.

 

In general, Smeal was losing money very quickly.  Spartan has NEVER made money, as far as I can tell, on their emergency products side of the business, for at least the last few years.  At what point do Spartan's share holders say enough and that whole mess is done with?

[chief60]

 

I had heard this rumor too, that all Spartan/Smeal products would wear all Smeal aerials.  I took that LTC would be left to rot as well.  

 

Here's my take.  Smeal got in trouble over extending themselves to begin with, and couldn't keep up with the increased demand of so many orders from so many new dealers.  Part of that problem is having enough skilled labor making the stuff you build.  How in the hell is Smeal going to continue to draw skilled labor in the middle of nowhere, with a now even higher demand for skilled laborers to build these aerials?  Hopefully they use more than one plant to build the Smeal design...  They should keep LTC as well, in my opinion.  This coming from a department that runs a Smeal ladder.

 

In general, Smeal was losing money very quickly.  Spartan has NEVER made money, as far as I can tell, on their emergency products side of the business, for at least the last few years.  At what point do Spartan's share holders say enough and that whole mess is done with?

 

I have heard a little bit different story involving their aerials. The Spartan line is going away, but the LTC is being kept and will use the Spartan personnel with the current LTC people (they are both in the original LTI plant) The smell tiller is going away and only the LTC is being offered and there is supposed to be some other version done the same way. All the snorkel/telesquirt are to remain in PA. I would bet Smeal keeps their bread and butter 105' & 75' rm aerials in Neb.

[drfeelgood]

 

I have heard a little bit different story involving their aerials. The Spartan line is going away, but the LTC is being kept and will use the Spartan personnel with the current LTC people (they are both in the original LTI plant) The smell tiller is going away and only the LTC is being offered and there is supposed to be some other version done the same way. All the snorkel/telesquirt are to remain in PA. I would bet Smeal keeps their bread and butter 105' & 75' rm aerials in Neb.

Exactly but what I heard but the entire LTC line (platforms and straights included) will be available as well 

[TacSupport1]

Who did Spartan ERV, before the Crimson, buy their Aerial line from? Or did they design them from the ground up?

[npfd801]

Exactly but what I heard but the entire LTC line (platforms and straights included) will be available as well 

 

Glad to hear it.  I was shocked when I heard what I did from reputable guy once involved with one of the groups acquired by Spartan.

[npfd801]

Who did Spartan ERV, before the Crimson, buy their Aerial line from? Or did they design them from the ground up?

 

Spartan has their own line of aerials built originally under Crimson, which were designed with a unique roller bearing system to reduce friction and binding and were "ground up" designs not bought from someone else.  Jim Salmi (?) designed the aerials, I think he then ended up with E\-One, not sure if there anymore. They were built in a section of the old LTI facility along side what was left of LTI under ALF, and still operating after Smeal's purchase as LTC.  

 

Spartan's aerial was offered to some other builders that didn't have their own (i.e. Toyne).  I assume they'll have the ability to use the LTC or Smeal product if they're doing away with the Spartan aerial design. 

 

The aerial business is unique isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm sure I'm missing stuff.

 

Smeal started out on their own, started building water well drilling rigs.

E\-One did all their own designs with aluminum originally, now offers steel. Did they start with something that wasn't originally theirs?

RK's founder was an engineer at Smeal and left to do his own thing.  Lawsuits were filed due to the similarity in the products...

Grove ended up as LTI, now LTC.  

Where did KME's aerials start?

Pierce originally used Smeal for aerials, then designed their own and also bought Nova Quintech out of Canada.

Spartan (Crimson) designed their own from scratch

HME now builds their own aerials, I assume from scratch?

ALF bought LTI and Aerial Innovations.  AI no longer exists.  Also bought Snorkel, which was bought by Smeal with LTI, and is now Spartan owned.

 

Sorry for going so far off topic.

[ACPD227]

KME's aerials started as Grumman aerial line I believe.

 

HME uses RK aerials.

[Bryce]

How does the Spartan/Smeal deal impact Ferrara?

[alex3610]

How does the Spartan/Smeal deal impact Ferrara?

 

As far as we know that relationship will remain as is.  It's a pretty sizable chunk of business for Smeal and I don't think Ferrara is ready to or even wants to design their own aerials.  Wouldn't it be interesting if REV or someone else were to purchase Ferrara?  Pure speculation on my behalf.  Anytime the "who is next to be bought?" conversation comes up Ferrara is always at the top of the list.

[Bryce]

All of this chaos seems to prove once again that fire apparatus manufacturing is not a particularly stable long term industry, with a few notable exceptions.  It sort of reminds me of the airline business, which constantly has new players coming in while old ones merge or go away.  For an industry that you would think would have some measure of stability, considering it largely relies on tax revenues (which will never dry up entirely) for its funding, it seems to be in a perpetual state of flux.    

[alex3610]

 

Spartan has their own line of aerials built originally under Crimson, which were designed with a unique roller bearing system to reduce friction and binding and were "ground up" designs not bought from someone else.  Jim Salmi (?) designed the aerials, I think he then ended up with E-One, not sure if there anymore. They were built in a section of the old LTI facility along side what was left of LTI under ALF, and still operating after Smeal's purchase as LTC.  

 

Spartan's aerial was offered to some other builders that didn't have their own (i.e. Toyne).  I assume they'll have the ability to use the LTC or Smeal product if they're doing away with the Spartan aerial design. 

 

The aerial business is unique isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm sure I'm missing stuff.

 

Smeal started out on their own, started building water well drilling rigs.

E-One did all their own designs with aluminum originally, now offers steel. Did they start with something that wasn't originally theirs?

RK's founder was an engineer at Smeal and left to do his own thing.  Lawsuits were filed due to the similarity in the products...

Grove ended up as LTI, now LTC.  

Where did KME's aerials start?

Pierce originally used Smeal for aerials, then designed their own and also bought Nova Quintech out of Canada.

Spartan (Crimson) designed their own from scratch

HME now builds their own aerials, I assume from scratch?

ALF bought LTI and Aerial Innovations.  AI no longer exists.  Also bought Snorkel, which was bought by Smeal with LTI, and is now Spartan owned.

 

Sorry for going so far off topic.

 

It gets pretty interesting when you start connecting the dots.  Smeal and LTI (Grove at the time) were essentially the grandfathers of the modern steel aerials (meaning built from structural steel elements).  They both started out about the same time a few thousand miles apart with no connection one another.  I forget the history but I want to say that the Grumman aerials (now KME) came from someone else or were designed by a lead engineer for another brand.  Perhaps someone else here can help fill in the blanks.  And yes, Jim Salmi is at E\-One as the head of the aerial products.

 

As it stands it sounds like the Smeal and LTC aerials will remain essentially doing away with the Spartan ER aerials.  But don't be surprised if you see a lot of their design elements over time incorporated into the others.  There are a bunch of similarities between the LTC and Spartan ER aerials by virtue of the fact that so many people came across the parking lot from the old company.  There are still details being worked out but I expect some press releases to come out sooner rather than later on all this stuff.

[ACPD227]

 

As far as we know that relationship will remain as is.  It's a pretty sizable chunk of business for Smeal and I don't think Ferrara is ready to or even wants to design their own aerials.  Wouldn't it be interesting if REV or someone else were to purchase Ferrara?  Pure speculation on my behalf.  Anytime the "who is next to be bought?" conversation comes up Ferrara is always at the top of the list.

Keep your eye on Marion. They build the cabs for spartan, Smeal and Farrara, It could throw a wrench in the works if someone else bought them. 

[TacSupport1]

And Rosenbauer also uses RK aerials?

[alex3610]

And Rosenbauer also uses RK aerials?

Correct.