Massachusetts Fire Apparatus

[mack505]

[quote name='edburke' post='159906' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:39 ']A phone call to the registrar confirms that Haverhill FD has a blanket permit authorized by the Haverhill police chief and issued by the registrar for all fire department vehicles to display blue flashing, rotating or oscillating lights in the direction of travel, in accordance with MGL Chapter 90 Section 7E. Please do not make accusatory statements without proof on this board.[/quote]

I've never understood the fascination some MA departments have with blue lights. But hey, if it's legal who cares?



You won't find any blue lights in my department, front or rear, though. Red, white, and amber seem to do the job just fine.

[Richard_L_Dean_07405]

[quote name='Mack505' post='142570' date='Aug 22 2007, 08:34 ']Sorry, but I am none of the above and have a blue tag. I've also randomly seen orange and yellow, and my other one is white. We have a mix of blue and white on the ambulances at work.



I still don't think the color means anything.[/quote]



I know it's off topic, but just to mention something. The days of Fast Lane like you have in Mass., EZ Pass (in about a dozen states) and the like may be numbered. Earlier this year, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (six busy crossings including the George Washington Bridge, Lincoln & Holland Tunnels) announced they are planning to institute cashless tolls within a couple of years. The way it will work is pics will be taken of the license plates, ownership will be determined and bills will be sent out. Initially this will be just for those without EZPass. They figure that a 90% collection rate and the relatively smaller administrative costs will be a lot cheaper than all those toll collectors. It will also ease the massive backups, someimes an hour at each crossing.



Rich Dean

[Guest]

[quote name='Mack505' post='162256' date='Nov 10 2007, 13:34 ']I've never understood the fascination some MA departments have with blue lights. But hey, if it's legal who cares?



You won't find any blue lights in my department, front or rear, though. Red, white, and amber seem to do the job just fine.[/quote]



I disagree. The D.O.T. and NFPA has standards on what lighting package goes on Fire Apparatus from Ambulances to Fire Engines. DOT requires 1 Amber, 1 Blue in the rear of ALL Fire Apparatus including Ambulances. If upon delivery your FD decides to change it, then whatever, but when ordering and when you receive the apparatue that's wht you get.

[Richard_L_Dean_07405]

[quote name='First-Due' post='162304' date='Nov 10 2007, 18:55 ']I disagree. The D.O.T. and NFPA has standards on what lighting package goes on Fire Apparatus from Ambulances to Fire Engines. DOT requires 1 Amber, 1 Blue in the rear of ALL Fire Apparatus including Ambulances. If upon delivery your FD decides to change it, then whatever, but when ordering and when you receive the apparatue that's wht you get.[/quote]



The NFPA only develops codes that are reccomendations to the various government entities. As for DOT regulations, I also believe that it would be up to the individual states as to what is legal in their jurisdictions. For example, in New Jersey blue lights are legally reserved for the personal vehicles of responders and red for all emergency vehicles (law enforcement, fire and medical) but anymore most of those emergency vehicles here do have the combinations of lights that you note.

[mack505]

[quote name='First-Due' post='162304' date='Nov 10 2007, 18:55 ']DOT requires 1 Amber, 1 Blue in the rear of ALL Fire Apparatus including Ambulances.[/quote]

Funny, most NFPA packages I've seen WON'T meet the standard with blue on the rear. When we last bought in 2002, the manufacturer's engineers would not put blue on the rear, and they looked sideways at the salesman when he mentioned it's use in MA. The salesman said he wasn't going to lose a sale over a blue light, but if we wanted them the truck would come from the factory with amber and the dealer would happily furnish blue lenses. What we did with them was our business, but they would NOT be NFPA compliant.



For the record, NFPA requires a certain amount of light (candlepower, whatever) in each Zone. They don't specify color. The only NFPA color requirements I know of are A) no amber to the front while moving and B ) no white to the front when stopped. Additional amber is encouraged to the rear when stopped, but not required.



I've never heard of a DOT standard for fire apparatus lighting. NFPA for fire apparatus, KKK-1822 for ambulances, DOT for headlights and tail lights. . .



I'll shut up now, as I can see this becoming a major OT discussion. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Guest]

I will not that in MA blue in the front is extremely rare and there is no way you can tell by looking if an fd or pd has a permit.

[Guest]

[quote name='Mack505' post='162256' date='Nov 10 2007, 13:34 ']I've never understood the fascination some MA departments have with blue lights. But hey, if it's legal who cares?



You won't find any blue lights in my department, front or rear, though. Red, white, and amber seem to do the job just fine.[/quote]



As a police officer with 24 years on the road, I can tell you that the only color lights most of the clueless motorists in this state (MA) even acknowledge are blue lights because when they see blue, they think traffic ticket, which means $$ and a surcharge, and they slow down (and even that is seldom... they're too busy doing their makeup, adjusting their iPod, drinking their Bud Lite, etc.).



It is still on MA General laws that state DPW trucks (now under the MassHighway moniker) may show blue to the rear (though most don't). I'll never forget coming up on an Elgin Pelican street sweeper on Rte. 128 in Lynn with blue strobes on it ..... traffic was slowed to a crawl because they thought it was a cruiser, but that left-hand breakdown lane was spanking clean!



In MA, most apparatus and ambulances show at least one blue to the rear these days. If it makes the motorists think twice if it is a cruiser, it just might make them slow down and let our FF's and EMT's have a little more margin of safety (although I once had the trunk of my cruiser pushed into the back seat in broad daylight at an accident scene with over 400 yards of unobstructed view of my cruiser with it's full lightbar lit, a 200 foot long flare pattern on the shoulder of the road by a moron who admitted she saw all of the warning signals, knew the road was icy, but was late for work)

[yelrowekim]

Most of the time if there is blue facing front...were I work... the light is probable off a cop car and is being recycled...

[Guest]

From what studies I have seen blue/red is the best as the red shows best in daylight and blue is best at night. FL HP actually has lightbars that show red in day and blue at night

[Guest]

[quote name='maximsnorkel27' post='162435' date='Nov 11 2007, 06:34 ']As a police officer with 24 years on the road, I can tell you that the only color lights most of the clueless motorists in this state (MA) even acknowledge are blue lights because when they see blue, they think traffic ticket, which means $$ and a surcharge, and they slow down (and even that is seldom... they're too busy doing their makeup, adjusting their iPod, drinking their Bud Lite, etc.).



It is still on MA General laws that state DPW trucks (now under the MassHighway moniker) may show blue to the rear (though most don't). I'll never forget coming up on an Elgin Pelican street sweeper on Rte. 128 in Lynn with blue strobes on it ..... traffic was slowed to a crawl because they thought it was a cruiser, but that left-hand breakdown lane was spanking clean!



In MA, most apparatus and ambulances show at least one blue to the rear these days. If it makes the motorists think twice if it is a cruiser, it just might make them slow down and let our FF's and EMT's have a little more margin of safety (although I once had the trunk of my cruiser pushed into the back seat in broad daylight at an accident scene with over 400 yards of unobstructed view of my cruiser with it's full lightbar lit, a 200 foot long flare pattern on the shoulder of the road by a moron who admitted she saw all of the warning signals, knew the road was icy, but was late for work)[/quote]



I am sorry I should have specified more on the lighting package. In MA if you order a Fire Engine, Ladder Truck, Rescue, etc. the rear of the apparatus shall have 1 Amber and 1 Blue Light, minium. In MA also ALL new apparatus has to have the forward white flasher on the top lightbar disengaged once parked. Alos and this is not enforced that well, wig wags, will not be used at night or flashing onced the apparatus is parked. Most NEW apparatus has these features built in once the apparatus is in drive, white lights, wig wags, etc. and once parked and out in park or neutral the white lights stop flashing.

[Guest]

ANY ONE HAVE A PICTURE OF NORWOOD SQUAD 2 THE INTERNATIONAL/E-ONE

[Guest]

This will be my first photo posting, so please bear with me if it doesn't work. This is Norwood's new Squad 2. I'm on the job there and it's huge, I call it a cruise ship. But it doesn't drive as bad as I had expected it too.

[Guest]

Sweet! It worked, and only took me about 4 years how to post on the internet! Stay safe brothers......

[Guest]

Also our new NA-1, a 2007 International/Horton ALS ambulance.

[mack505]

[quote name='First-Due' post='162490' date='Nov 11 2007, 13:12 ']I am sorry I should have specified more on the lighting package. In MA if you order a Fire Engine, Ladder Truck, Rescue, etc. the rear of the apparatus shall have 1 Amber and 1 Blue Light, minium.[/quote]

Last time I read Chapter 90, the law said MAY, not SHALL.



To whit:

Chapter 90: Section 7E. Display of red or blue lights on vehicles; permits; revocation; violations



Section 7E. No motor vehicle operated pursuant to section seven other than fire apparatus, ambulances, school buses, vehicles specified in section seven D used for transporting school children, and vehicles specified in section seven I shall mount or display a flashing, rotating or oscillating red light in any direction, except as herein provided; provided, however, that nothing in this section shall prohibit an official police vehicle from displaying a flashing, rotating or oscillating red light in the opposite direction in which the vehicle is proceeding or prohibit fire apparatus from displaying a flashing, rotating or oscillating blue light in the opposite direction in which the vehicle is proceeding.



The full text is available at [url="http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/90-7e.htm"]http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/90-7e.htm[/url]

[mack505]

[quote name='Mack505' post='162835' date='Nov 12 2007, 15:53 ']Last time I read Chapter 90, the law said MAY, not SHALL.[/quote]

Sorry if I've been a bit heavy-handed on the issue. I've just heard more rumor, speculation, opinion, and BS passed off as 'fact' and 'law' over the years, and it gets to me. I don't mean to imply that anyone here is at fault, but I try to set the issue straight when it arises.



I'm really shutting up now.



In an attempt to get back on topic, here's one of my favorite MA apparatus shots. Boston E24, Grove Hall, shot inside the station just after being washed; 3/16/03 during the Firepics does Boston tour.

[Guest]

[quote name='hogie1' post='162801' date='Nov 12 2007, 11:27 ']Also our new NA-1, a 2007 International/Horton ALS ambulance.[/quote]





Thanks for the pics. Two questions do you have one of the Engine post refurb and I uderstand Norwood is expecting a new Sqaud 1 anytime. Do you have any info on it. I did hear it was a Ford 450 utility body and it was ordered by another dept but never delivered.



Chris

[mack505]

Here's a couple more from my past. Newburyport Engines 6 & 7 operated this pair of 1967 Pirsch 1250/300 units. These were first-due throughout the 70's and in reserve throughout the 80's and 90's. Engine 7 was refurbed in the 1990s (1250/1000) and was still operating when shot in 2001; 6 was still on the books as reserve. Both have since been retired and Engine 6 has shown up at a few ATHS meets.



When I was a kid, these were the first custom apparatus I knew, and they were the epitome of 'big city' rigs to me.

[Richard_L_Dean_07405]

[quote name='Mack505' post='162338' date='Nov 10 2007, 20:12 ']Funny, most NFPA packages I've seen WON'T meet the standard with blue on the rear. When we last bought in 2002, the manufacturer's engineers would not put blue on the rear, and they looked sideways at the salesman when he mentioned it's use in MA. The salesman said he wasn't going to lose a sale over a blue light, but if we wanted them the truck would come from the factory with amber and the dealer would happily furnish blue lenses. What we did with them was our business, but they would NOT be NFPA compliant.



For the record, NFPA requires a certain amount of light (candlepower, whatever) in each Zone. They don't specify color. The only NFPA color requirements I know of are A) no amber to the front while moving and B ) no white to the front when stopped. Additional amber is encouraged to the rear when stopped, but not required.



I've never heard of a DOT standard for fire apparatus lighting. NFPA for fire apparatus, KKK-1822 for ambulances, DOT for headlights and tail lights. . .



I'll shut up now, as I can see this becoming a major OT discussion. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />[/quote]





In New Jersey, many if not most of the EMS has nothing to do with fire departments, so therefore I must ask, how can the NFPA dictate something for EMS in those places that is indepenedent?

[mack505]

[quote name='Richard_L_Dean_07405' post='162861' date='Nov 12 2007, 16:53 ']In New Jersey, many if not most of the EMS has nothing to do with fire departments, so therefore I must ask, how can the NFPA dictate something for EMS in those places that is indepenedent?[/quote]

They don't. The federal GSA KKK-1822 standard covers ambulances. [url="http://apps.fss.gsa.gov/vehiclestandards/framedoc1.cfm?DocName=KKK-A-1822F-08.01.2007.pdf&fedcode=1822&Document=yes&commentStatus=2&docType=Final"]http://apps.fss.gsa.gov/vehiclestandards/f...p;docType=Final[/url]



Even if they did, NFPA doesn't 'dictate.' The standards are recommendations, but they don't have the force of law unless adopted by the appropriate local regulating authorities.



Here's another retired MA rig. My engine company operated this 1985 Ford C/E-One 1000/500 until a couple years ago. The rig is x-Sudbury, MA.