seattle new rigs

[Guest]

What a lot of you folks out there don't realize is when you operate a fleet of rigs as opposed to one or a few, cost is a factor. I am not trying to pick a fight here but 90+% of the departments in this country simply can't afford the top of the line on every rig they operate. Seattle only has so much money for thier FD and about 80-90% of that is payroll and benifits. They atre not some department out in the Hamptons of Long Island New York that can have all thier rigs chrome plated.

[MFD76]

No fight intended, Here goes the new Q2b's have a low amp drawing motor more than the older models. Direct from our Federal Signal Dealer. Electronic Sirens are not the same as any mechnical. Electronic siren use many componets that wear out and are more unrelaiable that the simple mechnical siren no matter who built it. Starting the siren speaker uses a rubber diaphram that viabrates and is then amplified through the speaker driver. The diaphram can rot over time. the speaiker horn directs the sound. The control box has many cheep electronic componets that wear out. We have replaced a number of PA200 or 300's over the years but never a Real Q2b. The EQ2b is a glorified electronic siren and expensive, yes more than the real thing. It's sound is comming out of a 200watt speaker just like the PA300 so the sound out put is the same. That is why Whelen had to make the real Exicutor Speaker so large to achive the same db level as a real Q2B. Electronic sirens are not a directional siren, meaning the sound freq can jump over objects. That is why at a long distance the electronic sounds jumpy. The mechinal is a true directional siren that has incrediable penetrating power and can be heard a great distance 128db at 10ft. LA city has now started puting real Q2b's on becuase they figured out the MDT computer problem. You and also speck a seperate battery bank for you computer.



Now I work in a money stricken urban suburb next to Kansas City that buys plain jane rigs. We fight fire aggressively. We make 2000 runs a year with a pump and tower ladder. We have MDT's and Real Q sirens never had an issue. I refuse to run the ambulance siren (eletronic) only real Q2b off the foot pedal, after all we are the FIRE DEPARTMENT not Rescue Rangers. We also would not be caught dead without our Cairns N5A Leather New Yorkers or 880 Tradtion helmets with borke's. Our city is so low budget they buy Cheep-One's or E\-One's the biggiest junk I have ever officered, driven, or fought fire on. Their not a Seagrave or Pierce or Smeal. Oh yea we are Union IAFF and proud. Now don't get angy this is my opnion and I do respect others views and opnions after all we are all brothers in the fire service. I do hold Seattle in high reguard as a tradtional aggressive fire department with good union brothers.

[johnward]

[quote name='MFD 61 KS' post='216075' date='May 23 2008, 16:28 ']No fight intended, Here goes the new Q2b's have a low amp drawing motor more than the older models. Direct from our Federal Signal Dealer. Electronic Sirens are not the same as any mechnical. Electronic siren use many componets that wear out and are more unrelaiable that the simple mechnical siren no matter who built it. Starting the siren speaker uses a rubber diaphram that viabrates and is then amplified through the speaker driver. The diaphram can rot over time. the speaiker horn directs the sound. The control box has many cheep electronic componets that wear out. We have replaced a number of PA200 or 300's over the years but never a Real Q2b. The EQ2b is a glorified electronic siren and expensive, yes more than the real thing. It's sound is comming out of a 200watt speaker just like the PA300 so the sound out put is the same. That is why Whelen had to make the real Exicutor Speaker so large to achive the same db level as a real Q2B. Electronic sirens are not a directional siren, meaning the sound freq can jump over objects. That is why at a long distance the electronic sounds jumpy. The mechinal is a true directional siren that has incrediable penetrating power and can be heard a great distance 128db at 10ft. LA city has now started puting real Q2b's on becuase they figured out the MDT computer problem. You and also speck a seperate battery bank for you computer.



Now I work in a money stricken urban suburb next to Kansas City that buys plain jane rigs. We fight fire aggressively. We make 2000 runs a year with a pump and tower ladder. We have MDT's and Real Q sirens never had an issue. I refuse to run the ambulance siren (eletronic) only real Q2b off the foot pedal, after all we are the FIRE DEPARTMENT not Rescue Rangers. We also would not be caught dead without our Cairns N5A Leather New Yorkers or 880 Tradtion helmets with borke's. Our city is so low budget they buy Cheep-One's or E\-One's the biggiest junk I have ever officered, driven, or fought fire on. Their not a Seagrave or Pierce or Smeal. Oh yea we are Union IAFF and proud. Now don't get angy this is my opnion and I do respect others views and opnions after all we are all brothers in the fire service. I do hold Seattle in high reguard as a tradtional aggressive fire department with good union brothers.[/quote]



Well said. Seattle has had real Qs on some recent rigs, including the ALF pumpers purchased in 2003 and the recent batch of 2007/08 E-Ones. They also have the EQ2Bs on most of the Medic units. It is very apparent which is which, and also apparent which is better when you hear them coming. The real Qs make a very distinct, traceable sound. It sounds like a real firetruck and is easy to determine where it is coming from, even in downtown when the rig is coming through a cross street and there are buildings all around. The EQ2Bs sound warbly and bounce sound all over the place.



If the choice to not mount a real Q is truly about dollars and cents then they are being penny wise and pound foolish, a real Q will do a better job warning drivers, and if it can prevent totaling a $500,000 pumper and injuring or killing firefighters then the cost of a bigger engine/alternator is worth it.



John

[Guest]

How muck less amperage will the new Q's draw? We can't pick alternator sizes on our rigs because Air Force and GSA gets what a buyer does and he or she just buys things, they aren't firemen.

[senatobiafire704]

About 18 months ago, we totaled out a rescue rig in a busy intersection here in town while responding to a call. The driver of the other vehicle said that they did not hear the equipment coming through the intersection. After that, our mayor demanded that he wanted the loudest, attention getting bells and whistles that we could get on the new rescue and every new rig we purchase from here on out. So now we finally get to put Q2B's on all of our equipment. In the past, money was an issue and the city would not allow them. Yes $1800 is a big issue in a small town dept. They will definately get your attention and IMO should be on every piece of fire equipment.

[Bryce]

[quote name='johnward' post='216096' date='May 23 2008, 17:18 ']Well said. Seattle has had real Qs on some recent rigs, including the ALF pumpers purchased in 2003 and the recent batch of 2007/08 E-Ones.[/quote]



None of Seattle's recent rigs have real Qs. Trust me, I read the specs for them when they were posted on the city's website. The ALFs and E-Ones have EQs with the real looking grille. The last rigs they bought with real Qs were the '88 Spartan/Western States engines and '88 Spartan/LTI ladders.

[Bryce]

[quote name='KFDI3' post='216110' date='May 23 2008, 18:13 ']How muck less amperage will the new Q's draw? We can't pick alternator sizes on our rigs because Air Force and GSA gets what a buyer does and he or she just buys things, they aren't firemen.[/quote]



Q2b draws 100 amps. EQ draws 30.

[Guest]

That is 70 Amps difference, at $4.00+ a gallon diesel and rigs that avg 4-6 MPG. The larger engines may soon mot be an option. IIRC in 2009 the EPA will have even lower emissions stadards for diesel engines, and I will bet that that will equal less HP engines pre CI displacment.

[rlukas1]

SFD-West Seattle's Engine 29, 2007 E\-One

[MFD76]

Our last purchase in 2004 we speced dual alternators. It has worked fine, although we never have had electrical issues with the REAL Q2b siren. The EQ2b is a glorified electronic siren. If you are really that concerned about Amps look into the Timber Wolf Siren or Code Three has a mechincal out now called the Screaming Eagle. They both have less amp draw.



Don't forget that LED's have very little amp draw so all the more power for a REAL Q2b siren. The days of light bulbs are gone and LED's can allow a reduced HP motor the ablity to run the REAL Q2b but the alternator is the key to proper amps.



Remeber the REAL Q2b is a coaster siren. Meaning it has a clutch and motor and rotor. The foot pedal is depressed spinning the motor and enguaging the brass clutch onto the rotor. The sound is made and the foot pedal is released and the clutch disenguages and the rotor spins free and coast down with the nice long roll. The coast feature saves the motor and AMPS becuse the brushes are not spining and wearing down during the coast down.



Remember the 100 amp draw is not constant becuase of the coaster feature that still produces sound. The 30amp EQ2b is constant becuse it is an electronic siren no coast or real rotor. So in my thought process it really does not matter both draw power any REAL mechnical siren is far light years better than any electronic siren in many differnt ways.



Other mecancial sirens are mostly direct drive. Meaning the rotor is conected to the motor with no clutch. This can cause motor wear because the brushes are spining all of the time even during coast down mode.



Kansas City place just EQ2b's on the Batt Chiefs cars in 2001 or 2002 only no PA300. The chiefs complained that the EQ2b could not be heard so the last Batt Chiefs car replacments in 2005 got PA300's and EQ2b's. All of the real fire engines and trucks on Kansas City run REAL Q2B sirens and to my knowledge no issues. You would have to pry the REAL Q2B out of the KCFD Fire Captain's cold dead hands, they really like the REAL Q siren. As with most fire departments the first thing speced is a soild red or black over red Engine or Truck or Rescue, second is where to place the REAL Q2b siren.



Many mid-western departments have electronic sirens but we take great pride in running the Real Q siren. After all we are the FIRE DEPARTMENT and not the cops or the band-aid box.



Stay Safe Brothers

[Guest]

I will say this.....Engine 2's ALF has a real "Q". I know this because for the 48 hours I rode with them, that's all they used....The foot pedal Q. Oh, wait, I take that back, a couple of times they also used the electronic siren located on the radio along with the Q. Here is what I don't get, and this is an issue here where I live....When specing out a new engine/truck, they won't add the Q because of price, but yet they will add the expensive LED lights all around the truck......If you do it right, when specing out a truck, you could get a better deal adding the Q with the original spec.......A lot of dealers will work with you on price when you add it to the original specs, as apposed to specing the truck and buying a Q after the fact.......We have had issues about this for so long....Our FF's want the Q but the spec team as well as upper managment won't have it added on because of $$$, but like I said, they will add the expensive all LED lights on the truck.....

[MFD76]

I agree with you. For many years we moved Q sirens from the retired rig to the new rig. Our city has had money issues for almost all of its sixty years existing. The chief always told us it was a money issue and to use the older Q sirens on the new rigs. You are right it is more cost effective to include it in the spec. We have missed out on some basic features over the years because the chief said we will add it later. At least the Q was added. Just like a AM/FM/CD radio is called an early civil defense warning device with weather band in our spec. My buddies on Engine 10 at Wichita Fire Department asked for a bell on the new Pierce Dash pump and sold the truck committee on it as a pedestrian warning device. They protect the Wichita State University Campus (WSU) so they can warn the students and not blow ear drums with the REAL Q siren. Some of the really good fire appratus makers are now producing demos with REAL Q sirens.



The funny thing is REAL Q sirens never wear out. Our 1991 reserve pump has the Q siren from our 1968 Ward LaFrance Mark I pump. It is still going strong and sounds great our old truck company had a Q from a late 1950's ambulance. One of our Lt.'s in 1980 found the ambulance in a used car lot in KCK and offered 100.00 for the Q siren. They wired it to our brand new 1980 Pierce Arrow/ LTI Tower Ladder. In 2001 when the our second Cheep-One or E\-One Engine was purchased we were able to get the chief to agree to purchasing a new Q siren. So our lead pump and the 2004 Cheep-One tower ladder have new Q sirens. Oh yea the Bell off the 1968 Ward pump is on our 2001 Cheep-One pump and it has never worn out either. Q and Bell great combo.



Now each of our rigs except the two newest has had at least two new Federal electronic siren control boxes over there life span. Those cheep electronic boxs burn out or parts break or speakers rot. That is the beauty of a REAL coaster siren long lasting. People know the sound of the Q means big soild red or black over red engine or truck is comming.

[DualReverse]

Was out in Seattle with the wife on a work trip. Got to shoot a couple rigs...



Special Ops BN Chief, outside fire HQ:

[DualReverse]

Aid 14 at Station 4/5

[DualReverse]

Ladder 7

[DualReverse]

Rescue 1

[srq2009]

Would love to see that Rescue in action...

[rlukas1]

Battalion 2 has a new 2008 Chevy

[rlukas1]

Rear side view.....

[rlukas1]

[quote name='TransverseRoad' post='186246' date='Feb 2 2008, 23:17 ']Here's Ladder 8 returning to quarters via the rear ramp, with the new Crimson rear mount. Hope to get a much better shot in the future.[/quote]

Ladder 8, 2007 Spartan, Crimson.

Correction, my error! Was delivered in 2007, but it's really a 2006 rig.