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That didn't take long.........
From Red Storm Fire & Rescue Apparatus Facebook page
<div>
<div style="font-size:14px;">With the addition of LTI Aerials, Smeal Fire Apparatus now offers unequalled choice to its aerial customers. The new additions include:
* LTI HD & XD 105’ Rear-Mount Ladders
* LTI MetroStik 75’ Rear-Mount Ladder
* LTI 100’ Rear-Mount Pl<span>atform
* LTI 93’ and 100’ Mid-Mount Platforms
* LTI Tractor Drawn Aerial, 100’ and 105’
* Telesqurt Boom-Ladders available in 50’, 65’ and 75’ lengths.
* Squrt Boom
* Snorkel Articulating Platform</span>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:3px;">
</div>
Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.
When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
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WOW! I didn't see that coming. I assume that all of the LTI/Snorkel stuff will also be available on Ferrara, too?
I would bet, Smeal might work a deal also with Spartan ERV since they still use their chassis. Might be seeing Rosenbauer losing the Chicago Squads soon.
^ I was wondering the exact thing when I heard this. What will happen with the current Chicago Squad replacement talks??
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06-13-2014, 02:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2014, 02:41 AM by npfd801.)
Who is building Smeal's "branded"chassis line? I suspect Ferrara is, and if that's the case I can only see Smeal and Ferrara partnering to sell each others products. Spartan ERV's aerial line represents a ton of investment by them, I can't imagine they'd undermine that by putting another competitor's product in the mix.
(If you look at http://www.redstormfire.com/wp-content/u...hassis.pdf you can see the photo of the chassis in crash testing is actually a Ferrara). They've done a nice job of making the Smeal line look different than Ferrara's, but the air intake and a number other characteristics are a good giveaway.
To be perfectly honest, I'm actually shocked that Spartan hasn't cut Smeal's access to Spartan chassis now that they have their "own" line of chassis. That's why Rosenbauer was cut off, as were E\-One, KME, etc. However, I think cutting off Rosenbauer was a huge financial mistake for Spartan, one they'll never recover from.
We have a Smeal quint that has been a fantastic rig, I'm glad to see LTI is in good hands.
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Quote:Who is building Smeal's "branded"chassis line? I suspect Ferrara is, and if that's the case I can only see Smeal and Ferrara partnering to sell each others products. Spartan ERV's aerial line represents a ton of investment by them, I can't imagine they'd undermine that by putting another competitor's product in the mix.
(If you look at http://www.redstormfire.com/wp-content/u...hassis.pdf you can see the photo of the chassis in crash testing is actually a Ferrara). They've done a nice job of making the Smeal line look different than Ferrara's, but the air intake and a number other characteristics are a good giveaway.
To be perfectly honest, I'm actually shocked that Spartan hasn't cut Smeal's access to Spartan chassis now that they have their "own" line of chassis. That's why Rosenbauer was cut off, as were E-One, KME, etc. However, I think cutting off Rosenbauer was a huge financial mistake for Spartan, one they'll never recover from.
We have a Smeal quint that has been a fantastic rig, I'm glad to see LTI is in good hands.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">Smeal has re-branded chassis for years. The 1st Sirus series is a Spartan, Altris was an ALF, and the new S series is a Ferrara which every Smeal Dealer will tell what it is (Not like there is already 1,000 giveaways on who builds it). When Smeal does this with another chassis they have their "requirements" that changes or in some cases makes the cab/chassis better. As I was told Smeal wanted more options for there customers on a chassis. They ALF version was a low end and the Spartan was the High end but from what I understand the Sirus will still be available if requested but the "S" series will be the standard. This also allows Smeal to answer the "sole source" questions when asked. To be honest Ferrara, Smeal, Rosenbauer, and Spartan are not truley sole source because the cabs are actually built by someone else. Marion for Spartan and Rosey and CTC for Ferrara, Smeal,and HME.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">As for Ferrara telling Smeal what to do I don't see that happening since Smeal is it's own company and stands alone. They just has an agreement with Ferrara to supply a chassis. Ferrara has more to loose in the deal if they push the "our chassis only" BS because Smeal builds aerials where as Ferrara doesn't. Now will the purchase of LTI there is really no options for Ferrara. I was really thinking Ferrara or Rosey would have bought up LTI but they didn't which could be a very good thing.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">The Rosey/Spartan break up is a nasty business fight full of ugliness and Spartan is still doing fine and will continue to do so. Remember Spartan is still the largest chassis builder in the US fire service and companies like Pierce, Seagrave, Sutphen and E\-One wouldn't allow their products to built on another brand chassis for years or forever.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">Smeal buying LTI is puzzling to me but I hope it works out because LTI is a very good product and with "freshening up" as the Smeal CEO put it could make it even better. ALF wouldn't put money into LTI so many left for Seagrave, Smeal, KME, and Pierce who used designs and improvements developed by fustrated exLTI designers in their aerial products. I feel that Smeal will use LTI to get a ton of North East/Mid Atlantic business and have a facility to repair/refurb if needed. I see a huge push in the TDA world which other than Seagrave if you wanted a "Working class/all business" TDA LTI was it. I understand Smeal already has a workforce finishing up a few rigs at LTI as we speak.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">I hope this works out and the LTI/LTC brand stays a stand alone option in it's own facility. You would think every MFG has learned from what E\-One did to Saulsbury, putting a name plate on a RD Murray isn't a Saulsbury.
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06-13-2014, 11:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2014, 11:34 PM by npfd801.)
I worked for a Rosenbauer dealer just prior to when Spartan started to get pissy with them, this was when they cut off ALF, KME, E\-One and anyone else that had their own chassis line. I was well aware that Smeal had ALF and Spartan re-branding chassis, just as HME did/does for Ferrara and Rosenbauer, etc.
Spartan can say what they want, but they took an enormous hit in sales when they cut off Rosenbauer. If you read corporate profit reports, etc. the company is not doing well. If I owned stock, I wouldn't be pleased. See: https://materials.proxyvote.com/Approved...AR_201450/
Spartan Motors as a whole was profitable or was moving to be profitable (one division, I believe delivery trucks started making money in the second half of the year) in every segment BUT emergency chassis and vehicles, and the loss was so great in this one segment it drove an overall loss for the company as a whole of $8.2 million in 2013. Share prices for Spartan are a whopping 5.05, up from their lowest of the year of 4.70. The high over the year was 7.18. I truly think you will see Spartan continue to slip.
I would be curious if Spartan is still the largest builder of custom fire chassis any longer. Who is their big user? Smeal and ERV?
Smeal will do fine with LTI (LTC) because Smeal's focus is on aerials. Yes they build engines, but I'd bet money they sell three or four aerials to every engine they build. Enhancing that production capacity with an already respected and skilled workforce can't hurt them. I would also be surprised if all of LTI's existing lines survive intact long term, Smeal will determine what lines are too close to one another and trim the fat if needed.
Quote:
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">Smeal has re-branded chassis for years. The 1st Sirus series is a Spartan, Altris was an ALF, and the new S series is a Ferrara which every Smeal Dealer will tell what it is (Not like there is already 1,000 giveaways on who builds it). When Smeal does this with another chassis they have their "requirements" that changes or in some cases makes the cab/chassis better. As I was told Smeal wanted more options for there customers on a chassis. They ALF version was a low end and the Spartan was the High end but from what I understand the Sirus will still be available if requested but the "S" series will be the standard. This also allows Smeal to answer the "sole source" questions when asked. To be honest Ferrara, Smeal, Rosenbauer, and Spartan are not truley sole source because the cabs are actually built by someone else. Marion for Spartan and Rosey and CTC for Ferrara, Smeal,and HME.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">As for Ferrara telling Smeal what to do I don't see that happening since Smeal is it's own company and stands alone. They just has an agreement with Ferrara to supply a chassis. Ferrara has more to loose in the deal if they push the "our chassis only" BS because Smeal builds aerials where as Ferrara doesn't. Now will the purchase of LTI there is really no options for Ferrara. I was really thinking Ferrara or Rosey would have bought up LTI but they didn't which could be a very good thing.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">The Rosey/Spartan break up is a nasty business fight full of ugliness and Spartan is still doing fine and will continue to do so. Remember Spartan is still the largest chassis builder in the US fire service and companies like Pierce, Seagrave, Sutphen and E-One wouldn't allow their products to built on another brand chassis for years or forever.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">Smeal buying LTI is puzzling to me but I hope it works out because LTI is a very good product and with "freshening up" as the Smeal CEO put it could make it even better. ALF wouldn't put money into LTI so many left for Seagrave, Smeal, KME, and Pierce who used designs and improvements developed by fustrated exLTI designers in their aerial products. I feel that Smeal will use LTI to get a ton of North East/Mid Atlantic business and have a facility to repair/refurb if needed. I see a huge push in the TDA world which other than Seagrave if you wanted a "Working class/all business" TDA LTI was it. I understand Smeal already has a workforce finishing up a few rigs at LTI as we speak.
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">
<p style="font-family:arial;font-size:10pt;">I hope this works out and the LTI/LTC brand stays a stand alone option in it's own facility. You would think every MFG has learned from what E-One did to Saulsbury, putting a name plate on a RD Murray isn't a Saulsbury.
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Late seeing this thread...
I can't think that Ferrara would be happy Smeal acquired LTI... Ferrara wanted LTI. I still see no marketing of the new "Smealfara" chassis. Their website is terrible. I suspect that arrangement will fall apart. The arrangement Smeal had with ALF for the Centron went nowhere...granted that was ALF.
I suspect Smeal wanted LTI for a few reasons: to keep it away from Ferrara, the $ potential for servicing existing LTI customers, the Tele-Squrt and Squrt, and the potential to get big city TDA contracts (like LA and Philly). Smeal has a successful aerial line already, but their TDA frankly hasn't sold well. The Tele-Squrt, Squrt, and an established TDA design will be a major B-12 shot in their arm. US Tanker also gives them another service facility and elliptical tankers. And here is a wicked rumor for you coming from a certain area that could result in a...say..."Smealgrave." I find that hard to believe...but if Ferrara is really mad at Smeal...Smeal is in a spending mood and acquiring Seagrave would give them a true custom chassis and be the cherry (or middle finger) on top.
Spartan is NOT doing fine...the fire side, that is. The ERV division is bleeding badly. Remember, large parent companies have shed weight many times in the past. Fire trucks weren't the primary business of Mack. FMC dumped fire trucks. Grumman dumped fire trucks, even though they had a massive backlog and were actually profitable! At the time Grumman and FMC were the #3 and #4 builders in the industry, but both decided to streamline and concentrate on government business. I could easily see Spartan getting out of the "complete" fire truck business.
I always felt Sutphen was poised to continue jumping ranks...but this aerial debacle will be black eye and an expensive fix...I know its much deeper...more than just a couple of reported failures. I don't think Smeal is gunning for #1 or #2, but I think they strongly feel they can become #3. It will be hard to overtake KME, but I think they'll be top 5 when the smoke clears.
Just my spin on the current industry... 
Kent Parrish
Louisville, KY
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It will be interesting to see where this goes Kent, you're right. I've never thought of Smeal as a serious factor in fire apparatus, especially not here in Indiana. It's still crazy to me that they now own such a big name like LTI, and UST, and dare I say it could have gone to a better company, in my opinion? I'm curious to know where all of this money that they're spending just came from, out of nowhere.
Trav!
Travis- Mill Twp. Fire Dept. Marion, IN.
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Quote:It will be interesting to see where this goes Kent, you're right. I've never thought of Smeal as a serious factor in fire apparatus, especially not here in Indiana. It's still crazy to me that they now own such a big name like LTI, and UST, and dare I say it could have gone to a better company, in my opinion? I'm curious to know where all of this money that they're spending just came from, out of nowhere.
Trav!
While Smeal tends to lack the name recognition of the more prominent manufacturers, they do build "bullet-proof" apparatus similar to the way that Pierce did in the 80's and 90's before they were acquired by Oshkosh. Interestingly enough, Pierce even bought their aerials from Smeal up into the 90's prior to coming up with their own design. As compared to some of the "big boys", Smeal also does not try to be everything to everyone, choosing rather to focus more on building a reasonably comprehensive line of products to maintain quality and acceptable delivery times. All that aside, Smeal has developed a number of their own apparatus innovations that deserve a close look by those in the market to purchase fire apparatus.
I believe that as long as Smeal remains a stand-alone company they will continue to be a serious contender in the fire apparatus field because they control the quality versus shareholders who want the quantity. If more departments bought their apparatus based on fact and product quality versus brand loyalty and status, Smeal would likely have much more of the apparatus market share. It will be interesting over time to see how adding LTI and UST to the product line will affect Smeal's marketability overall.
As a disclaimer, I am not associated with Smeal or a local Smeal representative, but I do have considerable knowledge of their manufacturing capability and experience with their apparatus as an end user.
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Just was told by a Smeal dealer that all Smeal dealers now also rep Danko. I asked if Smeal bought an interest in some part or whole of Danko, but that was unknown.
Between Smeal, LTC, US Tanker, and Danko this gives a fairly complete line that gives them a means to be competitive on just about anything out there. This will be interesting to watch. They could bid a Danko tanker against someone else looking for a no frills, inexpensive water hauler, to a Smeal that would be a sole source rig with their own branded Ferrara sourced chassis, or even a US Tanker with a stainless body.
Supposedly UST has already gained a ton more work after the acquisition, should be interesting to watch.
The UST stainless pumper body is a little different animal than say a Toyne or Custom Fire stainless bolted unit. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Pierce didn't actually come up with their own design for aerial ladders. They stopped buying Smeal ladders when they purchased Nova Quin Tech from Quebec. NQT was formed after Pierre Thibault went bankrupt (for the final time) and NQT used Thibault designs. I'm sure Pierce has made some design improvements but one example is the 'Sky Arm' platform with the articulating fly section that was originally bought out by Thibault in about 1989 and I believe Pierce is still marketing the design today.
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Quote:Pierce didn't actually come up with their own design for aerial ladders. They stopped buying Smeal ladders when they purchased Nova Quin Tech from Quebec. NQT was formed after Pierre Thibault went bankrupt (for the final time) and NQT used Thibault designs. I'm sure Pierce has made some design improvements but one example is the 'Sky Arm' platform with the articulating fly section that was originally bought out by Thibault in about 1989 and I believe Pierce is still marketing the design today.
"Design" was a poor choice of words on my part - just should have said "aerials". I was not aware that Pierce used the Nova Quintec aerials to replace the Smeal aerials they had been purchasing. Thanks!
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Quote:Pierce didn't actually come up with their own design for aerial ladders. They stopped buying Smeal ladders when they purchased Nova Quin Tech from Quebec. NQT was formed after Pierre Thibault went bankrupt (for the final time) and NQT used Thibault designs. I'm sure Pierce has made some design improvements but one example is the 'Sky Arm' platform with the articulating fly section that was originally bought out by Thibault in about 1989 and I believe Pierce is still marketing the design today.
That is incorrect. The Pierce Aerial was introduced in 1992. They didn't purchase Nova Quintech until 1998.
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09-11-2014, 11:26 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2014, 11:26 AM by GA_Dave.)
Quote:"Design" was a poor choice of words on my part - just should have said "aerials". I was not aware that Pierce used the Nova Quintec aerials to replace the Smeal aerials they had been purchasing. Thanks!
That is because it didn't happen that way. The only NQ designs used by Pierce are the SkyArm and the SkyBoom. The PAL and PAP have ALWAYS been Pierce designs. The PAP ( Pierce Aerial Platform) replaced the L.T.I. platforms on Pierce apparatus beginning in 1985. It was constructed by Structural Fabrications, Inc. in Pennsylvania for a few years, then moved to Kewaunee, WI after Pierce purchased S.F.I. Kewaunee Engineering also produced the PAL. Kewaunee was purchased in 1998 and the name changed to Kewaunee Fabrications. Eventually, production was moved to Appleton.
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The Skyarm is no longer an option. To expensive to build per Pierce.
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The aerials are still being produced in Kewaunee as of last year.
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Quote:That is because it didn't happen that way. The only NQ designs used by Pierce are the SkyArm and the SkyBoom. The PAL and PAP have ALWAYS been Pierce designs. The PAP (Pierce Aerial Platform) replaced the L.T.I. platforms on Pierce apparatus beginning in 1985. It was constructed by Structural Fabrications, Inc. in Pennsylvania for a few years, then moved to Kewaunee, WI after Pierce purchased S.F.I. Kewaunee Engineering also produced the PAL. Kewaunee was purchased in 1998 and the name changed to Kewaunee Fabrications. Eventually, production was moved to Appleton.
And, as Paul Harvey used to say, "now you know the rest of the story...Good Day!" 
Funny how the Sky-Arm was dropped around the same time Pierce obtained the rights to sell Bronto Skylift products. Now that E\-One has picked up the Bronto line once again, will Pierce re-introduce the Sky-Arm ?
I also think that they adapted the Sky-Five five section ladder.
Off topic, but here's some fire apparatus trivia (for canadian apparatus buffs) ...
Pierce still owns the rights to the Pierre Thibault name. Pierre Thibault's grandson, Carl Thibault, runs his own company in Pierre Thibault's original factory in Canada, but his company carries his name, Camions Carl Thibault. He was president of Pierre Thibault at the time they went bankrupt for the last time in 1989. He started his new company a few weeks later, but couldn't use the Pierre Thibault name so he used his own name. Meanwhile, after a failed attempt by the union to restart the company (the union owned 51% of Pierre Thibault), a conglomerate (Nova Bus Corporation) bought the assets of Pierre Thibault and started Nova Quintech in the early 1990s. Nova Quintech sold its aerial product line to Pierce in 1998. The Sky-Arm, Sky-Five, Sky-Pod, Sky-Boom and Sky-Four aerials were all designed by Pierre Thibault in the late 1980s. Those are the last aerial ladders designed and built in Canada.
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Quote:The aerials are still being produced in Kewaunee as of last year.
When I was last at Pierce in 2009, the aerials were being built at the McCarthy Road plant.
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