FDNY New pumpers.........

[Guest]

Seagrave still has the deal for the new Squads, 95-foot tower ladders, possibly a couple of tillers if memory serves correctly.....they're not completely out of the picture.

[Marc]

This sucks.......I guess my company will be getting one of these new KME's... <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[drfeelgood]

Great another apparatus manufacturer that will be run into the ground by FDNYisms and warranties.



Seagrave is the dark ages and will not survive unless they change their ways and step into the now. Tough trucks can only get you so far but service after the sale, open to new ideas, and comparative costs in this economical environment that is the only way to survive.



Again with apparatus sales down 34% from last year I’m surprised more didn’t jump on the FDNY bid

[Marc]

[quote name='drfeelgood' timestamp='1335195737' post='482680']

Great another apparatus manufacturer that will be run into the ground by FDNYisms

[/quote]



Just curious..........What's an FDNYism????

[Guest]

Hard to say how this will go... I know NOTHING compares to FDNY - BUT KME does have rigs in Boston, LA, LA County, and Philly. As was said the STREETS will make or break the rigs and the 5 year warrenty that goes with them will make or break KME....

[goon16]

Im curious also what are fdnyisms ?

[apb2148]

Just to clear up the thoughts of Seagrave....Since CEO Joe Neiner has been in his position, Seagrave is back in the "black" and in better shape than it has been in years. They can build a custom truck in less than 12 months, they just built my vollies a new engine. If you haven't seen the Marauder II.2, it is worth a look! We are really please with the product, since it is our 7th Seagrave.



With that being said, they have had there issues in the past, for sure, but the service has increased 10 fold in our area! I do wish they would put there improvements out there in cyberspace for more to see. Just my opinion. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[edburke]

[quote name='Crossbronxxpress' timestamp='1335198191' post='482684']

Just curious..........What's an FDNYism????

[/quote]



An outrageous contractual demand for warranty requirements that no other department in the world would reasonably expect of a manufacturer.....that which killed the original ALF, and caused Seagrave to be so high on the most recent bid. My guess is that it will bankrupt KME.

[drfeelgood]

[quote name='edburke' timestamp='1335234554' post='482766']





An outrageous contractual demand for warranty requirements that no other department in the world would reasonably expect of a manufacturer.....that which killed the original ALF, and caused Seagrave to be so high on the most recent bid. My guess is that it will bankrupt KME.

[/quote]



Exactly. I hope it does not bankrupt KME but time will tell

[drfeelgood]

[quote name='apb2148' timestamp='1335233056' post='482762']

Just to clear up the thoughts of Seagrave....Since CEO Joe Neiner has been in his position, Seagrave is back in the "black" and in better shape than it has been in years. They can build a custom truck in less than 12 months, they just built my vollies a new engine. If you haven't seen the Marauder II.2, it is worth a look! We are really please with the product, since it is our 7th Seagrave.



With that being said, they have had there issues in the past, for sure, but the service has increased 10 fold in our area! I do wish they would put there improvements out there in cyberspace for more to see. Just my opinion. <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[/quote] Great then maybe they will start bidding on more departments that are looking for new rigs instead of being a part of a process but does not bid and gives the department a lame excuse that they don't build trucks with roll up doors.

[Guest]

[quote name='edburke' timestamp='1335234554' post='482766']

An outrageous contractual demand for warranty requirements that no other department in the world would reasonably expect of a manufacturer.....that which killed the original ALF, and caused Seagrave to be so high on the most recent bid. My guess is that it will bankrupt KME.

[/quote]



To be entirely fair about the above statement, the following observations must be made......The FDNY (or whoever does the specs for them) writes a spec that protects THEM AND THEIR MONEY That is their fiduciary responsibility to the people who pay the bills...the citizens of New York City. Apparatus manufacturers are providied a copy of the specifications including all warranty demands. If they've got anything going for them, the perform all of their due diligence regarding those specs and their ability to comply with them within their capabilities and means. After that they should arrive at a bid price that reflects the result of that process. If they think they can "low-ball" a contract of that nature they are kidding themselves....BIG TIME!!!! Nobody REQUIRES any manufacturer to participate in that process, and many don't. It's still a free country.



Based on the bids recieved, I'm guessing that Seagraves bid most accurately reflects the result of proper due diligence combined with years of experience in their case servicing the FDNY contract. Ferraras bid MAY reflect the results of their research coupled with things that are not readily "visible"......i.e. there may be a substantial difference in costs such as labor and other things that are reflected in that bid. For KME's bid to be as low as it is leads me to the conclusion that they MAY be trying to "low-ball" this one to secure that giant FDNY "feather in their cap" that everybody seems to crave. If anything can "sink" a company that would be what would do it very quickly.



If I were building/selling apparatus, I'd rather build/sell 10 to 15 "onsies & twosies" a year than 50 rigs to FDNY. I'd make a lot more money AND have a lot less ass aches at the end of the year. Just my humble opinion based on my knowledge of the apparatus business coupled with years of experience.

[ff168577]

I have read the comments, and I am not a supporter of one manufacture over the other, but I guess some manufactures look at it this way. If they build a decent truck, that with stands the beating, how much of the warranty will actually have to be used. Just my two cents. I am not saying anything against Seagrave, but I know Seagrave had issues with door handles a few back on the fdny trucks. I am just looking at putting a different spin on things.

[BFD190]

This is what gets me. They had the glove issues. So they tested a bunch more.. now leather helmets are getting whacked... wind studies done for the hi rise nozzles and blankets... all things that were field tested to death... yet they jump all over Ferrara for a huge bid and never tested a rig.. same seems to be happening here.. you think that given the issues with some of the 9/11 replacement seagraves the dept. Would be inclined to give them a bit of flex .. the company did they're best to get rigs quickly.. which some will have you believe was the reason for some of they're issues.. why not field test these rigs before such a large order is made...

[edburke]

[quote name='RM7317' timestamp='1335284709' post='482836']

To be entirely fair about the above statement,

[/quote]



That statement was nothing more than a definition of "FDNYism" for those that were wondering what it was referring to. If you read it all the way through, it goes way beyond due diligence to the taxpayers, it pretty much says that if you want to be able to claim that you provide rigs to the FDNY, you're gonna pick up the cost of everything the FDNY does to it.

[Guest]

One of my friends helped write the specs for FDNY during the late 90's early 2000's. As he described it, it is a "5 year we break it, you fix it " warranty. FDNY does not pick manufacturers. There are no exceptions to their specs, if it calls for part xyz, you will supply xyz, not another part the manufacturer feels is comparable. They were designed to last ten years in front line service, as the FDNY does not allow refurbishments to its rigs, per its labor contracts.



AS for the issue with the gloves, that was a manufacturer that tested and approved a product, and then during production changed materials used in the glove without retesting or notifying the FDNY or the NFPA.

[RagsCo4]

As for other cities such as Boston using them, I know from talking with a couple guys that have the rigs in service they aren't very pleased with there new KME's. I can only imagine how much FDNY is gonna love the KME's! Time will tell!

[Bryce]

[quote name='edburke' timestamp='1335302872' post='482869']

That statement was nothing more than a definition of "FDNYism" for those that were wondering what it was referring to. If you read it all the way through, it goes way beyond due diligence to the taxpayers, it pretty much says that if you want to be able to claim that you provide rigs to the FDNY, you're gonna pick up the cost of everything the FDNY does to it.

[/quote]



This is actually a really interesting conversation to me (but keep in mind, I'm a dork, so that could be why). I tend to disagree with you. If FDNY's specs require bidders to basically pick up the cost of everything they do, then the bidder should build that into the cost of the rig. Take KME, for example, since apparently they've got the low bid here. If they haven't properly built all of these costs into their bid, and they end up losing money on the deal, how is that FDNY/NYC's fault? Seems like KME should have done a better job researching their contractual requirements prior to bidding. FDNY is just taking advantage of a company that didn't do their homework. Sucks for KME, but oh well. It seems like this is exactly what we as taxpayers should be demanding of our government -- getting multiple bids, picking the lowest one that meets spec, and holding the businesses to their contract.



Am I missing something?

[edburke]

Read the specs. As stated above, it's a "we break it, you fix it" policy....not, "if the part fails, you fix it" policy. I wish I could bring my car to the dealer after abusing it for 4-1/2 years and have them fix everything I broke for free. The spec is designed to be beneficial to the department, and there is nothing wrong with that. The manufacturers are the ones shooting themselves in the foot by bidding on it. If they refused, the city would have no choice but to re-write the specs to something more reasonable.



All I did was define FDNYism for people who were asking....now I'm in a debate over spec writing....oy!

[Bryce]

[quote name='edburke' timestamp='1335318913' post='482893']

Read the specs. As stated above, it's a "we break it, you fix it" policy....not, "if the part fails, you fix it" policy. I wish I could bring my car to the dealer after abusing it for 4-1/2 years and have them fix everything I broke for free. The spec is designed to be beneficial to the department, and there is nothing wrong with that. The manufacturers are the ones shooting themselves in the foot by bidding on it. If they refused, the city would have no choice but to re-write the specs to something more reasonable.



All I did was define FDNYism for people who were asking....now I'm in a debate over spec writing....oy!

[/quote]



No debate -- I agree with your first paragraph! <img src='http://www.firepics.net/groupboards/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[smketrfdny]

Sources have told me the contract is NOT signed with KME. And found this on the FDNY rant this morning:





[left]No contract has been signed with Kovatch unless it happened since the start of business today.



One would hope that something was learned from the Ferrara disaster that a new vendor, regardless if it is KME or FFA, should produce a pilot rig and the remaining order be delayed while the pilot apparatus is field tested for a significant period of time. This was supposed to happen with the rear mounts, but the EMS guy running Fleet knew better... and instead of a small pilot group of never built - untested fire apparatus, the job ordered several dozen...[/left]



[left]And a Dept order just came out looking for people to join the spec committee. Maybe Marc and myself can add some input.[/left]



[left]Stay safe, Brothers.[/left]